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Shay
Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Posts: 885
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 Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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Oneputt-
Bye?
-Shay
-Edited for clarity
Last edited by Shay on Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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orPowers
Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 637
Location: Medford, OR
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| McGuffey wrote: |
| Oneputt, you confuse me a little. |
Oneputt is gone. Questions more to the point would be appropriate though. These look to me like red herrings designed to avoid the issue of whether deadly force was required to stop Hitler and the Japanese, and to avoid the clear question of police force required within society and our place within it. What you are talking about here is internal policies of a sovereign nation within its original territories or territories taken as a result of wars and/or military action put upon them from outside. Israel has not embarked on a policy of territorial acquisition by force, nor is it engaged in genocide within its borders. Whether policies enforced are necessary for security or not may well be debated and changed as the threat of annihilation of Israel diminishes.
Let's try again: is deadly police force required in society as it exists, and what is the place of Quakers within that society?
In His Love,
orPowers
_________________
Romans 8:38-39
my blog: http://mild-side.blogspot.com/ |
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james
Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 1108
Location: Minneapolis
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| orPowers wrote: |
| Let's try again: is deadly police force required in society as it exists, and what is the place of Quakers within that society? |
First of all, I don't speak for "Quakers" but only for myself as a Quaker.
Force, yes. Deadly force, perhaps also yes, on very rare occasions. In my view, it is employed far more often than it needs to be. And if some Friends make absolute statements or overstate the case, that is for the good in a society as quick to turn to violence as our own. There are plenty of voices for violence, relatively few for turning the other cheek. As I have said, we can serve as the leaven in the lump. That doesn't mean being right about everything, it means being faithful to our light.
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James Riemermann
www.nontheistfriends.org
www.liberalquakers.org |
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Gracie
Joined: 27 Nov 2006
Posts: 170
Location: Iowa
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:23 am Post subject: |
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James said [/quote]As I have said, we can serve as the leaven in the lump.
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Yes. It is the edge or fringe opinions that allow the center to widen and explore. |
_________________
http://sowingmildoats.wordpress.com
When will our consciences grow so tender that we will act to prevent human misery rather than avenge it?
Eleanore Roosevelt |
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orPowers
Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 637
Location: Medford, OR
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| james wrote: |
First of all, I don't speak for "Quakers" but only for myself as a Quaker.
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Thank you, that's all ANY of us can do. Until those questions are answered in each of our minds, dialogue on pacifism is meaningless.
In His Love,
orPowers
_________________
Romans 8:38-39
my blog: http://mild-side.blogspot.com/ |
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oneputt
Joined: 28 Dec 2002
Posts: 232
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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Later than sooner,it seems.I was gone over the weekend and came here tonight to do a last check on this thread before removing the bookmark ( and to see if I had been sent any "take a hike" PM's  ).But I see McGuffey asked me a specific question,and I've always disliked people leaving a discussion with questions unanswered,so I'll answer it,and try not to run out on this discussion before leaving.
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| Yes, the Jewish population of Europe suffered unspeakable horrors. Does that justify the modern State of Israel and the intentional displacement of Arabs for a "Jewish" State? History and conflict are locked in a continuim. Do you support military action against Isreal to rectify the Arab compliant? |
Without,I hope, turning this thread into a discussion on Israel,there is no comparison between Israel and Nazi Germany.Arabs live safely within Israeli borders.They may be second class citizens,but they are not herded up and gassed.Whatever wrongs committed by Israelis are certainly not enough to warrant military action.Very few things do.But a few,it seems to me,do warrant military intervention.
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| Are you sure you wouldn't like to be a gadfly? |
In my experience,a gadfly would not be appreciated here.This is one of the most heavily moderated boards I have ever seen,and almost any sort of disagreement seems to be frowned upon,even when tolerated.And I really don't,however much it might seem like it,want to always be the guy stirring it up.I came here because I had hopes of one day being a Quaker.For at least now,that desire has been dampened as I have gotten a little more familiar with many aspects of American Quakerism.I don't mean this as an insult,but I originally thought Quakers had something that other Christian churches didn't,in the area of mysticism and contemplation.I really see more of it now,or at least as much without the abandonment of basic Christianity, in the contemplative traditions of Episcopalians and Catholics.But I do appreciate the sentiment.Thank you. |
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CelticNorth
Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 755
Location: East of Eden
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| I'll defer my views regarding jusifications for the modern state of Isreal by readers here to former President Jimmy Carters new book on the subject. I am not alone of my views. The origin of this thread was Peace Testimony and the Holocaust, and my overall sense for years has been that the Middle East policy of robbing Peter to pay Paul, by the forced creation of an Isreali State at the expense of Arabs, was wrong. When Jimmy Carter was brave enough to finally use the word "apartheid" in describing many of Israeli policies and decisions regarding Arabs, I think we should be free to link that behavior to specific German policies that had an equal effect on Jews during the 1930's. Zionism has a dark side, and we should all be grateful that a former President has finally spoken to the issue. I only wish the Holocaust would have had a better outcome. My peace testimony is have you look at the Palestinian side more empathecially, and listen to when they ask why they should pay for the Holocaust with their land. I praise Jimmy Carter for his courage to speak on this issue. |
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oneputt
Joined: 28 Dec 2002
Posts: 232
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| As I said,I don't care to hijack a thread about the just use of violence with an Israeli/Palestinian debate.You asked me if I supported military action to address Palestinian grievances.I do not,on the basis that nothing Israel is doing is as horrific and completely evil as what the Nazi's did.I'm not supporting Israeli policies,but Palestinians are not being treated as the Jews were under the Nazis. |
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CelticNorth
Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 755
Location: East of Eden
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, Oneputt, the fact is that they are- minus the concentration camps and "final solution", of course. In the same way America enacted "Jim Crow" laws after the Civil War to avoid addressing full integration of freed Salves into American society, Israel is now confronting the downside of it being a "Jewish State", while having a 20% Arab population that is not longer willing be treated as second class citizens. That does not include the life of misery under the "occupation" by Isreal in the Gaza Strip and West Bank. I only hope we could all offer a peace solution that ensured a fully democratic Israel-Palestine, where one's religious orientation was not the basis of citizenship or receiving full human rights. The oppressive laws enacted by Israel against Arabs can be found on a web site maintained by the Washington Report on the Middle East. The Presbyterian Church in the United Stated enacted a boycott of Israel this past year becasue of their human rights violations. A new book, published by an Israeli named Michael Oren titled "Power, Faith and Fantasy" is on the history of Christian Zionism belief and doctrine. Being the gadfly that I am, I'm not as well read on the subject as most, but I do know that the compalaint of the Palestinian Arab is justified. And as American taxpayers, we financially enable its continuation. I do not hijack anything, by the way, but merely pass along useful threads and works that have helped define the discussion. |
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oneputt
Joined: 28 Dec 2002
Posts: 232
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I do not hijack anything, by the way, but merely pass along useful threads and works that have helped define the discussion. |
Continuing to make off topic posts is hijacking a thread.And the plight of the Palestinians is off topic in a thread about the just use of violence,unless you are advocating the Palestinians being justified using violence against Israel.Are you?If not,then what place does the Palestinian/Jew conflict have in a thread about the use of violence?The Jews are brought up to illustrate a possible justification for violence,not to claim that they can do no wrong,or that they are right in the P/J conflict.Simply arguing that the Palestinians are being mistreated is off topic,especially when there is already another thread on the issue.I responded on the Israel thread.Hopefully,you can let this one go back on topic. |
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Gracie
Joined: 27 Nov 2006
Posts: 170
Location: Iowa
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:17 am Post subject: |
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Oneputt, it seems to me that by deferring all post-halocaust examples of inhumanity, you are devaluing your own argument. If nothing can ever equal the iniquity of Nazi Germany, why must we even discuss it? It's only relevant to Quaker peace testimony TODAY if we can use the lessons learned from that terrible war to discuss modern problems. What would you have us do, wait until human ovens are built in the Middle East or in Dafur before we can discuss them in the same breath as WWII?
_________________
http://sowingmildoats.wordpress.com
When will our consciences grow so tender that we will act to prevent human misery rather than avenge it?
Eleanore Roosevelt |
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orPowers
Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 637
Location: Medford, OR
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Gracie wrote: |
| What would you have us do, wait until human ovens are built in the Middle East or in Dafur before we can discuss them in the same breath as WWII? |
Injustice is being perpetrated in the Middle East, as well as in many other places in the world, and they should have our attention, but it does not qualify to be spoken of as the holocaust. Genocide IS being perpetrated in Darfur and DOES qualify.
In His Love,
orPowers
_________________
Romans 8:38-39
my blog: http://mild-side.blogspot.com/ |
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oneputt
Joined: 28 Dec 2002
Posts: 232
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Oneputt, it seems to me that by deferring all post-halocaust examples of inhumanity, you are devaluing your own argument. If nothing can ever equal the iniquity of Nazi Germany, why must we even discuss it? |
Where exactly did I ever say this?I have only said that the Palestinian situation in Israel does not rise to the same level as Nazi Germany,and so does not,it seems to me,warrant military action.In fact,I did use the first Gulf War to run Saddam out of Kuwait as another example of just force,so your claim is baseless.Can you please show me,since you claim I said it,where I said that nothing can ever again equal the Nazi's?
| Quote: |
| It's only relevant to Quaker peace testimony TODAY if we can use the lessons learned from that terrible war to discuss modern problems. What would you have us do, wait until human ovens are built in the Middle East or in Dafur before we can discuss them in the same breath as WWII? |
This is such a twisting of what I am saying that it is comical.I have been arguing that what we should do is learn from the Nazi's,and realize that some things can only be stopped by force,and that the greater evil is to allow people like the Nazi's to act without fear of forceful reprisal.I have learned that lesson,and would be more willing to sanction force to stop a similar situation today because of it.It is the pacifists who do not want to face the truth,and who will,imo,argue against force if and when the next Hitler shows up.I am trying to discuss it in advance of any ovens in the ME.Why don't you direct that question to the pacifists here instead of one positing that the lesson we learned from the Nazi's it that sometimes the just and moral thing to do is stop the insanity,by whatever means necessary?
BTW,Gracie,would you support military action in Darfur?
Last edited by oneputt on Thu Mar 1, 2007 8:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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oneputt
Joined: 28 Dec 2002
Posts: 232
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| Posted: Thu Mar 1, 2007 8:30 am Post subject: |
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Oneputt-
Bye?
-Shay |
Take the time to read the posts,shay.I explained the slight delay a few posts below yours 3 days before you edited the question mark in.I know you gleefully look forward to my departure,so just be patient. |
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Gracie
Joined: 27 Nov 2006
Posts: 170
Location: Iowa
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| Posted: Thu Mar 1, 2007 9:21 am Post subject: |
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Oneputt, I'm not going to scan your posts to prove my point. Rather, I've inferred throughout reading these a refusal to waver from a set viewpoint. I see this not as a virtue of strength, but as a desire to not engage in true discussion. After all, if one's mind is made up and set in iron, what's the point of talking? Debate for the sake of debate only holds no charm for me, so I'll leave the field to you.
BTW I would likely support intervention in Dafur, along the lines of intervention in Bosnia.
_________________
http://sowingmildoats.wordpress.com
When will our consciences grow so tender that we will act to prevent human misery rather than avenge it?
Eleanore Roosevelt |
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