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| Vegetarian or not? |
| I am vegetarian |
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37% |
[ 17 ] |
| I am not vegetarian |
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62% |
[ 28 ] |
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| Total Votes : 45 |
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| Author |
Message |
Shay
Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Posts: 885
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 Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| oneputt wrote: |
| This statement is completely illogical.Vegetarians don't eat meat,so the issue of lacking B12 because you don't eat meat is not an issue for them?Huh?And whether it is meat,or other animal products such as eggs or milk,this is the only way to get processable B12. |
And many vegetarians eat eggs and drink milk. It's only vegans that don't. Vegans use no animal products, by-products, or anything that hurts animals if they can help it. They will not even eat honey. HOwever, even they can find acceptable sources of B12 unless they count microorganisms as living creatures.
To repeat the part you seem to have skipped:
b12 is made from microorganisms, which even vegans cannot help but ingest whenever they breathe or swallow water, so even strictly vegan sites will tell you this is not killing, but rather making use of a resource:
I don't think Stuart was saying our bodies can't process meat- heck, our bodies can also process a limited amount of poison and inorganic material in general, they're pretty amazing things! I think his point is that it is possible to live and be healthy and do so with a vegetarian lifestyle. I don't see why you're arguing so strongly against it- while I'll admit he's on a crusade to convert, his beliefs don't have the force of law and you're welcome to disagree if you wish- but why so vociferously?
There is a big difference between "How we evolved" and "How we choose to live." Most primates have a pecking order of individuals within a tribe- should we live like that? I for one am glad we stopped throwing poo. And BTW- when was the last time you climbed a tree? Just saying- just because we physically evolved to do something doesn't mean we have to continue in that vein- as thinking creatures, we have the choice to chance our behavior if we see compelling reason to do so. |
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Laurence17
Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 385
Location: U.K.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:03 am Post subject: |
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Thanks,Shay, very clear and helpful.
we can all only do our (different) best(s), I guess.
I do hate the thought of creatures suffering, and especially the process of transported in lorries, seems terrible to me--it'd do my head in. I even hate crowded rush-hour trains, when I have a seat !
The Jehovah's Witness say that all will be transformed on a paraside earth one day! I love that vision of Isaiah and of the end of the Book of Revelation--the light, the beauty, every tear wiped.
_________________
Abwoon : divine progenitor, breathing mindfulness through poor in spirit and the resonating realm of ruach |
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oneputt
Joined: 28 Dec 2002
Posts: 232
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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To repeat the part you seem to have skipped:
b12 is made from microorganisms, which even vegans cannot help but ingest whenever they breathe or swallow water, so even strictly vegan sites will tell you this is not killing, but rather making use of a resource: |
I've skipped nothing.Please explain to me how you get this B12 from microorganisms without using animal products.Vegetarians have tried to find alternate sources for B12 besides animal products,and have found none.Plant sources of B12 are not processable by the human body.You make it sound like we can stand outside with our mouths open and breathe in all the microbial B12 we need.We can't,we need to ingest some form of animal product.
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| I don't think Stuart was saying our bodies can't process meat- heck, our bodies can also process a limited amount of poison and inorganic material in general, they're pretty amazing things! |
The point is that our bodies are designed as omnivores.If you haven't seen the vegetarians try to claim that we are designed to be vegetarians only then you haven't read all that has been said on this issue by the vegetarians.I am simply rebutting false information given by them elsewhere.
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| I don't see why you're arguing so strongly against it- while I'll admit he's on a crusade to convert, his beliefs don't have the force of law and you're welcome to disagree if you wish- but why so vociferously? |
Oh please.Why is someone who dares to challenge the views of some liberal Quakers labeled vociferous?I am simply stating my view that their claims are incorrect.Please quit reading things into my posts that don't exist.
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| Just saying- just because we physically evolved to do something doesn't mean we have to continue in that vein- as thinking creatures, we have the choice to chance our behavior if we see compelling reason to do so. |
Have at it.No one is telling the vegetarians to eat meat.But when they start making incorrect statements and unjust assumptions to try and force others to see their personal POV then the other side has a right to correct them,just as I am trying to do.I could care less if they choose not to eat meat,until they start saying that those who do eat as nature designed them to are wrong and perhaps even immoral.
BTW,there is a difference between social evolution and physical evolution.Throwing poo and climbing trees is a sorry analogy in regards to the physical evolution of our bodies. |
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Shay
Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Posts: 885
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| oneputt wrote: |
| I've skipped nothing.Please explain to me how you get this B12 from microorganisms without using animal products.Vegetarians have tried to find alternate sources for B12 besides animal products,and have found none.Plant sources of B12 are not processable by the human body.You make it sound like we can stand outside with our mouths open and breathe in all the microbial B12 we need.We can't,we need to ingest some form of animal product. |
from: http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=12864
| Quote: |
| ALL vitamin supplements, with the exception of vitamin B12 supplement, are chemically synthesized. This means that they are produced by combining separate chemical elements in a factory. Vitamin B12 is biosynthesized, which means that it is made by using bacterial enzymes. |
Emphasis mine. As I said- it can be made using bacteria farms. Some hormones and immunizations are biosynthesized too. You're right, you can't stand outside and breathe in either of those either- it's a scientific process, not an entirely organic one. If you were to count bacteria as animals, that means that you couldn't even have a fever and be a good vegan. (Although probably someone somewhere is lamenting killing millions of cold germs with their perfidious high body temperature.) However, you would probably still be a pretty happy vegetarian taking immunizations and drinking cows milks and all that stuff, anyway. However, only the most extreme (and short-lived, either with lifespan or idealogy) vegans consider harming bacteria and viruses as violence or cruelty to animals.
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| Oh please.Why is someone who dares to challenge the views of some liberal Quakers labeled vociferous?I am simply stating my view that their claims are incorrect.Please quit reading things into my posts that don't exist. |
Who said anything about liberal Quakers? In case you haven't noticed, quite a few of the folks weighing in on this discussion are out and proud Conservatives, primitives, or otherwise of a non-liberal stripe.
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| Have at it.No one is telling the vegetarians to eat meat.But when they start making incorrect statements and unjust assumptions to try and force others to see their personal POV then the other side has a right to correct them,just as I am trying to do.I could care less if they choose not to eat meat,until they start saying that those who do eat as nature designed them to are wrong and perhaps even immoral. |
Fair enough, and I agree with you, (again- not a vegetarian myself) I'm pointing out that while humans don't HAVE to be vegetarians, they certainly can be without harm to their bodies, assuming they pay attention to their diet, just like anyone else. There's just a less wiggle room. I'm not sure if you mean to be coming off this way, but it seems like you're arguing that humans are omnivores and if they're not, they're somehow unhealthy or doing something wrong.
After all, omnivore doesn't mean we have to eat meat, just that we can gain nutrition and sustenence from it when we do. Yes, he was wrong when he said humans are designed to be vegetarians, but really the more arguments you throw up to counter, the more space he has to throw in 'facts' to suit his cause, and the more attention this thread and those ideas get- is that what you really want? I think there needs to be more level-headed discussion, not being at total loggerheads! All you get then is an endless circle of "Nuh-uh!" "Uh-huh!"
Can you see at least some middle ground on this issue? |
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oneputt
Joined: 28 Dec 2002
Posts: 232
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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Vitamin B12 is biosynthesized, which means that it is made by using bacterial enzymes.
Emphasis mine. As I said- it can be made using bacteria farms. Some hormones and immunizations are biosynthesized too. |
I'm not sure of your purpose in this line of arguing.My point in bringing up B12 was that the human body is not made for a plant based only diet,and the fact that those who attempt this diet must resort to a pharmaceutical company to get adequate nutrition only bolsters my point.Since early man,or even men of the last century,have not had access to pills to supplement their diet....point made.Honestly,any diet that requires you to use lab created pills to get all your nutrients is a highly illogical diet.
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| Who said anything about liberal Quakers? In case you haven't noticed, quite a few of the folks weighing in on this discussion are out and proud Conservatives, primitives, or otherwise of a non-liberal stripe. |
Since rabidly supporting a vegetarian diet is mostly a liberal concept,complete with all the false claims of how much more beneficial it is to the environment,when I am rebutting such people I stand by my reference to liberals.I might add that I am liberal in many respects,so I do not throw the word out as an epithet.
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| I'm not sure if you mean to be coming off this way, but it seems like you're arguing that humans are omnivores and if they're not, they're somehow unhealthy or doing something wrong. |
Well,I am.If you are not eating a balanced diet of plant and animals products then you are eating unhealthy and doing something wrong,even if only to your own body.But more to the point,these folks are spreading false info about how healthy such a diet is and exposing the less informed to a potentially damaging diet,especially if those they mislead start applying a vegan type diet to very young children without the necessary supplements.
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| After all, omnivore doesn't mean we have to eat meat, just that we can gain nutrition and sustenence from it when we do. |
Only if you wish to resort to artificial means to get the supplements you need.
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| Yes, he was wrong when he said humans are designed to be vegetarians, but really the more arguments you throw up to counter, the more space he has to throw in 'facts' to suit his cause, and the more attention this thread and those ideas get- is that what you really want? |
Uh,yes,actually.The more people read about the misinformation that we are designed as vegetarians the better.
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| Can you see at least some middle ground on this issue? |
I am completely in the middle ground.The vegetarians are completely free to avoid meat as much as they wish,and I am free to eat it when I wish.What can be more middle ground than that?Pointing out the erroneous claims of vegetarians is not being at loggerheads,it is simply telling the truth in a forum where others are spreading misinformation.Is there something wrong with correcting misinformation,especially if it has a health impact? |
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Anthony
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 1542
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| oneputt wrote: |
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| This is simply not true. Herbivores do have hydrochloric acid but to a lesser degree. If, over a long period, herbivores have eaten a meat diet, more hydrochloric acid will be produced - this is the law of evolution: adaptation. |
Herbivores do not produce the acid in quantities necessary to digest meat,while humans do.You simply prove my point that our bodies are designed to process meat.
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| Oneputt, your logic appears to be flawed: vegetarians don't eat flesh so the issue of B12 deficiency does not apply - it is an issue for vegans only and is not a factor in proving that humans were not 'designed to be vegetarians.' |
This statement is completely illogical.Vegetarians don't eat meat,so the issue of lacking B12 because you don't eat meat is not an issue for them?Huh?And whether it is meat,or other animal products such as eggs or milk,this is the only way to get processable B12.
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| This is not true, 'large [meat] farming' is not necessary, in fact non-animal, plant based protein is not only healthier but requires less land to produce and does not produce large amounts of methane gas, one of the primary sources of global warming. All of this is part of the misinformation generated under the influence and 'encouragement' of the meat industry (influencing and controlling the masses much like the pharmaceutical industry - it is about profit, wealth, monopoly and power) and should be treated with caution. The facts are available online to those who are interested. |
While this sounds good in theory,it simply isn't true.You cannot,as the veggie supporters do,do a simplistic acre of plant food vs. acre of meat ranching comparison.Many areas cannot support farming,and the cattle free range on the hardy native grasses that can grow.Come to where I live and try running some kind of largescale vegetable farm.You'll be broke in a year.Yet large numbers of cattle are free ranged on the native grasses.This is true in many other parts of the world also.This claim by the veggies in this matter is a very selective and misleading one.It might apply doing the comparison on an Iowa farm with good soil,where the plant foods outperform the cattle ranchers,but all the world is not Iowa.
Meat eating evolved from necessity to feed a growing human population.
Oh,and the "facts" that should be used with caution are the ones that the vegetarians claim to support their agenda.How many vegetarians have ever told people they are trying to convince about the B12 issue? |
I don't intend to get drawn into a Oneputt argument of tit-for-tat. You either don't understand what I've written in my last post, or you simply refuse to accept it as a logical statement - and your tone leaves a lot to be desired. You defeat your own objective over and over again.
The ethical issue of this debate is well documented, therefore there is no need for repetition. Others will judge for themselves where lies the focus of love, respect and compassion for the whole of creation, and which stance refuses to condone selective violence.
Oneputt, once your start to get abrasive I simply skip and don't read your posts - sorry. 
In Friendship |
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Anthony
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 1542
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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Shay, Thank you. You talk a lot of sense on this issue, and I like the way you say it - surprise, surprise considering our history. 
In Friendship, Stu  |
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oneputt
Joined: 28 Dec 2002
Posts: 232
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't intend to get drawn into a Oneputt argument of tit-for-tat. You either don't understand what I've written in my last post, or you simply refuse to accept it as a logical statement - and your tone leaves a lot to be desired. You defeat your own objective over and over again. |
Your last post dealt with supposed "facts" about vegetarianism and farming.What I understand is that things you regard as fact and present as a reason to be vegetarian are wrong,and provably so.You have chosen to be offended because you cannot dispute what science proves factually.
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| The ethical issue of this debate is well documented, therefore there is no need for repetition. Others will judge for themselves where lies the focus of love, respect and compassion for the whole of creation, and which stance refuses to condone selective violence. |
The ethical reason for vegetarianism is a very valid one,and one that I have given consideration to myself.Unfortunately,you don't seem to trust enough in this concept and instead resort to misinformation and erroneous claims about other aspects of vegetarianism instead of focusing on this aspect.
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| Oneputt, once your start to get abrasive I simply skip and don't read your posts - sorry. |
That's alright.I understand two things about this statement.First,when someone disagrees with you and expresses it,you take any disagreement as being abrasive.Second,you don't want to know the true facts and will skip over them in the pretense that the person presenting you with what you don't like to hear is being abrasive. |
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acfriend
Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 53
Location: Arkansas City, KS, USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 8, 2006 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not a vegitarian and I eat meat.
As one that has studied agriculture, and rangeland. By eating meat (some meat) we are actually utilizing more of the Earths resources (in a better way) to feed us. By not eating meat we would have to cultivate land that should not be cultivated. Most of the land used for pasture is land unsuitable to grow crops without expensive conservational construction. So eating meat can be very enviromentally consious. (of course I won't push the issue)
With that being said, I think it is wrong to waste meat or to kill an animal just for sport. if we are killing an animal it should be used to feed us, if we aren't going to eat it then it shouldn't be killed. Growing up this is how my parent's attitude was and it was passed down to us. |
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BillSamuel
Joined: 06 Aug 2002
Posts: 772
Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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In fact, at least in North America, large amounts of grain are grown as feed for livestock grown for meat. All that land could be used to produce crops for human consumption.
_________________
Bill Samuel, Silver Spring, MD, USA
Co-Coordinator, Friends in Christ |
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acfriend
Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 53
Location: Arkansas City, KS, USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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bill that is true but much of that land is either arid (which the grain produced is specialized for cattle, usually rotatted with wheat) or Corn, which is produced in the hundreds of bushel's per Acre. Many of the grains used in feed More goes to human consumption than feed (execpt for genetically enhanced grain) and as far as vegitables, much of the land used for grain production is not suitable for large scale veg. production.
as far as calories/acre meat production is by far the greatest. and if we are worried about 3rd world countries that grains are staple, the US's grains are too high of a quality for them to afford. If farmers didnot sell grain for feed they would go out of buisness.
The use of grains for ethanal in the future will far out weigh the use for meat will we get upset about this? probably but is it better to use than oil by far. |
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quakerponderer
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 9:56 pm Post subject: Semi-Vegetarian |
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Although I "tend towards" vegetarianism, I cannot say I am completely vegetarian or that I think I ever will be manage to be completely veg in the future. I once saw a vegetarian magazine describe what I am as a semi-vegetarian, and I wish that term was more widely recognized.
I strongly prefer not to eat mammals, but I slip up on this a few times a year.
I very occasionally eat poultry or seafood, but almost never prepare it in my own home (from both leaning away from these, as well as a lack of cooking knowledge of these). |
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Laurence17
Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 385
Location: U.K.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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acfriend I admire you.
I wish I was nearer to this point. I do really think I shouldnt eat it, ideally. I feel a hypocrite really. Though I was brought up around farming. But as a child i 'loved the animals' --or something close, and never quite felt the reality of 'where they went.'
I was an ovolactverggie for 5 years and then a vegan for 5 years, but this was a long time ago.
I am torn probably --I think slaughter is a terrible process on one hand,, but UK is a very meaty culture on t'other.
I hope I will be forgiven.
Forgive these inadequate musings, Friends....
_________________
Abwoon : divine progenitor, breathing mindfulness through poor in spirit and the resonating realm of ruach |
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acfriend
Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 53
Location: Arkansas City, KS, USA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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Laurence, I do not look down on anyone for what they eat or with they would eat. Our western culture is very meaty, for better or worse who knows but I will say that we are by far the most inactive culture (and that is for worse) I wish I could eat more vegitarian meals but my family all has hypo glycima which means we burn everything so quickly we can't keep up. If I went on a veg. diet I'd pass out (or eat all day)
I think it shouldn't matter but we should respect others' diets. If I invited a vegitarian to supper I would serve a vegitarian meal, it would be rude if I didn't. and If I ate at a vegitarians house I would rejoice and praise God for the meal. and have communion with them.
Diet should reflect our activity by far USA over eats. Maybe that should be what we look at instead of what we eat. |
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Anthony
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 1542
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| Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Laurence17 wrote: |
I wish I was nearer to this point. I do really think I shouldnt eat it, ideally. I feel a hypocrite really. Though I was brought up around farming. But as a child i 'loved the animals' --or something close, and never quite felt the reality of 'where they went.'
I was an ovolactverggie for 5 years and then a vegan for 5 years, but this was a long time ago.
I am torn probably --I think slaughter is a terrible process on one hand,, but UK is a very meaty culture on t'other.
I hope I will be forgiven.
Forgive these inadequate musings, Friends.... |
Hello Laurence
The only discussions I wish to participate in on this board are about animals - they need those of us who are willing to speak out on their behalf against the wickedness of human predators.
From reading your posts I understand you to be a gentle, compassionate and patient person; it seems that your spiritual instinct is telling you that your initial reason for being a veggie/vegan is still valid. It is within you, calling to the compassionate love of your better judgement.
It matters not whether a culture is ‘meaty’ or not (this justifies nothing) more reason to stand firm and resist the propaganda of the meat industry that seems to have a monopoly on the media and advertising industry. The multinational meat corporations spread misinformation; they can afford to entice us with mouth-watering, seductive images of cooked animal flesh that bears no resemblance to the creatures whose lives have been sacrificed to satisfy man’s palate. This is not even touching on the cruelties of intensive breeding, transportation and slaughter.
Meat tastes good for those who can pretend that it is something other than a dead animal that has had the most appalling violence inflicted upon it. In our age a vegetarianism lifestyle is very easy. A non-meat diet can be very delicious, but one has to stop comparing it with the seductive taste of cooked flesh. It is like abstaining from tobacco or alcohol: it needs endeavour and willingness to break free of the addiction. Then, the veil of self deception will be lifted and we can break free of our denial and refusal to see and admit the holocaust that is being inflicted on millions of innocent and defenceless creatures every day – billions every year.
To inflict suffering and deprivation on any sentient being is against the Christian ethic of love and compassion toward all creatures, and we are no less culpable when we allow others to do it for use.
Laurence, you say ‘I hope I will be forgiven.’ I know the animals will forgive you because that is the nature of animals: unconditional love and forgiveness. Rather, will you be able to forgive yourself? I hope so.
There is a wonderful book that I am currently reading and recommend called Peace to All Beings by Judy Carman. It’s has a spiritual tenor but is neutral in its religious stance.
For the more Christian discerning I recommend Kaufman & Braun’s book Good News for All Creation: Vegetarianism as a Christian Stewardship.
Finally, for those who are prepared to face the graphic and honest facts of what is really happening to our non-human companions on this planet, I recommend The No-Nonsense Guide to ANIMAL RIGHTS by Catherine Grant.
In Friendship |
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