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rylan_losce
Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 56
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 Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:06 pm Post subject: Dissection |
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I am a devoted vegetarian. Recently, for school we are to do a dissection of a crayfish. Since I oppose unneccessary death, and the crayfish has been killed so that a few high school students could understand its physical makeup, I oppose this dissection. However, when I expressed my views to my teacher, he told me to have my parents talk to him and decide. Now my parents are forcing me to dissect against my own wishes and beliefs. Could you please give me some advice as to what I should do? I am very worried.
BTW-The teacher did provide alternative projects, the problem lies with my parents. |
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BillSamuel
Joined: 06 Aug 2002
Posts: 772
Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure I fully understand. You say the teacher does provide alternatives. Are the alternatives only available if you have permission from your parents?
Your parents can't actually force you to dissect the crayfish. Perhaps they will make it difficult for you if you refuse, but the moral choice remains yours.
Are your parents cooperative with your vegetarianism? I'm a little mystified as to why they would cooperate with that but object to you taking advantage of a school-provided alternative to dissection.
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Bill Samuel, Silver Spring, MD, USA
Co-Coordinator, Friends in Christ |
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rylan_losce
Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| BillSamuel wrote: |
| I'm not sure I fully understand. You say the teacher does provide alternatives. Are the alternatives only available if you have permission from your parents? |
Yes, I can only do the alternative if I have parental consent.
| BillSamuel wrote: |
| Your parents can't actually force you to dissect the crayfish. Perhaps they will make it difficult for you if you refuse, but the moral choice remains yours. |
I know; this is where I have the most trouble, deciding what the Spirit wants me to do. I am going to pray about it and let the Spirit guide me.
| BillSamuel wrote: |
| Are your parents cooperative with your vegetarianism? I'm a little mystified as to why they would cooperate with that but object to you taking advantage of a school-provided alternative to dissection. |
This is what I do not understand either. I do not see why they would allow me to be a vegetarian, yet not let me go through with my beliefs completely. They said that the dissection will help me better understand science.
Thank you so much for your remarks. I greatly appreciate them. |
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Anthony
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 1542
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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Dissection in UK schools has not been allowed for many years but I'm not sure of its alternatives. Surely computer graphics are used, etc.
May I send you my best wishes and support in you stance against this unnecessary practice. Noone can make you participate - there is no need for argument - silent and peaceful resistance is best. You will be respected and admired for refusing to go against your conscience - even if begrudgingly from some quarters. You will also raise the awareness of the unacceptability of killing other creatures for experimental purposes. Your motive is love and respect for all life - God bless you for this.  |
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Laurence17
Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 385
Location: U.K.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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Hi mate. I'd say Be your self. (On the other hand don't forget the crayf- ish is already dead, and might at some level 'prefer' to be put to good use, now.
I think the S /spirit is yours.......Your spirit. There's nothing external to you that you have to please.
You could have a clearness group with another Friend, or friends....
Thinking of you.
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Abwoon : divine progenitor, breathing mindfulness through poor in spirit and the resonating realm of ruach |
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Anthony
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 1542
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| Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Laurence17 wrote: |
On the other hand don't forget the crayf- ish is already dead, and might at some level 'prefer' to be put to good use, now.
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Laurence, I think it is accepted that the crayfish is dead - we don't go out killing people so that there can be an autopsy. Our young Friend is obviously upset and his point is:
| rylan_losce wrote: |
| I oppose unnecessary death, and the crayfish has been killed so that a few high school students could understand its physical makeup... |
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Cel
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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I guess i have a rather sterile view of this. If the crayfish is already dead and you had no hand in the death of it then I see no logical point in pushing the issue. I disagree with taking life unneccessarily as well. I know that there are many better ways to teach about biological functions since we already know how everything works in the things we are disecting. They could just give demonstrations on a computer or even a pictograph or something. But again if the animal is already dead then why let it's death be in vain? To do so would be incredibly illogical.
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Formerly Known As Carl |
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Anthony
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 1542
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| Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Cel,
I commend you for saying that you don't approve of taking life unnecessarily, but this is what is happening to the crayfish - and the crayfish is really a symbol for the death of all animals that are killed for human convenience. You say:
| Cel wrote: |
| But again if the animal is already dead then why let it's death be in vain? To do so would be incredibly illogical. |
I suggest that if this reasoning was taken beyond crayfish it could be (and most likely has been) a most dangerous rationalisation for tyranny and cruelty. For example, the slave owners were of the opinion that as the slaves were already slaves and depended on their owners for a living, why free them - what would they do? They were already dependent slaves. Likewise, in the illegal killing of elephants (or other animals killed for human convenience) after all they have been killed, so why not make use of their tusks, fur, horns or whatever. The reason is that if this practice is not resisted then it will continue. The point appears to be that the crayfish are not being accidentally killed and therefore it is not being said: 'Well, poor little crayfish, you are already dead, so, lets not waste you.' NO! The point is, as our young friend as explained, they have been killed for experimentation - NOT BY ACCIDENT!
This crayfish is a symbol for all defenceless creatures that are being exploited for the conveniences of man - I thank God for the likes of this young person - lets support him/her and not rationalise away the concern.
Please lets try and understand the insight of a very brave, caring and troubled young person who is saying:
| rylan_losce wrote: |
| I oppose unnecessary death, and the crayfish has been killed so that a few high school students could understand its physical makeup... |
I say God bless you - the animal kingdom needs people like you. |
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Cel
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Anthony wrote: |
| The point appears to be that the crayfish are not being accidentally killed and therefore it is not being said: 'Well, poor little crayfish, you are already dead, so, lets not waste you.' NO! The point is, as our young friend as explained, they have been killed for experimentation - NOT BY ACCIDENT! |
May I just point out that you actually have no real evidence of how they are killed so you can't actually make this claim.
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This crayfish is a symbol for all defenceless creatures that are being exploited for the conveniences of man - I thank God for the likes of this young person - lets support him/her and not rationalise away the concern.
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I do support him/her in their path. I am simply saying that since the animal is already dead it should be put to use. I understand your arguments and your concerns. While for the most part I do not share them I do understand them. Refusing to do the work in a science classroom because of your beliefs is noble however for the most part it will be a most fruitless act. I am very scientifically minded and for the most part emotion plays very little part in that. We try to find the answers behind things and tend to distance outselves from the emotions. So while I do support thia person in their choices, decisions, and actions, I do not feel that it will come to any real purpose. Which in essence means that the animal we are discussing was, in whichever way, killed for no reason.
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Formerly Known As Carl |
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Anthony
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 1542
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| Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:56 am Post subject: |
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Hello Cel,
| Cel wrote: |
May I just point out that you actually have no real evidence of how they are killed.
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I take the word of our young friend - they are killed for experimentation.
| Cel wrote: |
Since the animal is already dead it should be put to use.
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I refer you to my previous post regarding this.
| Cel wrote: |
[protesing] will be a most fruitless act. |
I don't think that any protest is a fruitless act, just like I don't except that any expression of love is ever wasted even though it does not elicit a response. How sad and defeatist to take this attitude - one has hope when following one's conscience, and people notice even if they don't respond.
| Cel wrote: |
I am very scientifically minded and for the most part emotion plays very little part in that...We try to find the answers behind things and tend to distance ourselves from the emotions |
I know that you are right to a certain extent but this is the attitude of the vivisection laboratory and the Nazi doctors - it has to be resisted and it is very much a noble cause.
| Cel wrote: |
| . So while I do support thia person in their choices, decisions, and actions, I do not feel that it will come to any real purpose. Which in essence means that the animal we are discussing was, in whichever way, killed for no reason. |
Do we only carry out noble actions, or demonstrate our objection against tyranny and in defence of the vulnerable and persecuted ONLY if it will come to any 'real purpose?' The real purpose (aim) is to demonstrate our resistance and objection against something we believe is unacceptable - this is the real purpose - the rest is a bonus, and although success is the desired outcome it is not necessarily a justification for the action. Quakers protest against war but war has not stopped.
The crayfish are being killed for a very obvious reason - for human experimentation. It is an attitude not confined to the senseless and unnecessary killing of fish. |
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Top Ramen
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Posts: 94
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:29 am Post subject: |
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I was raised on a farm and spent much of my life providing for my family from the livestock from my farm. I live within this process of life and death. my animals have dignity and I have respect for their life and contribution to me. I just want to state as reflecting my life experience that your issue does not speak to me.
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"Freedom is actually a bigger game than power. Power is about what you can control. Freedom is about what you can unleash." - Harriet Rubin |
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Anthony
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 1542
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Noah Lee wrote: |
| I was raised on a farm and spent much of my life providing for my family from the livestock from my farm. I live within this process of life and death. my animals have dignity and I have respect for their life and contribution to me. I just want to state as reflecting my life experience that your issue does not speak to me. |
Noah Lee,
I note your comments on living 'with the process of life and death' - I think we all do this.
I have made a decision not to discuss animal issues with farmers or the children of farmers, especially on this forum, because the financial stakeholder investment and the emotional ties and loyalty to family and parents make it very difficult to have an objective debate. Therefore, out or respect I do not wish to challenge animal issues with Quakers who have a family history of farming.
In Friendship
Last edited by Anthony on Sat Apr 15, 2006 8:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Anthony
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 1542
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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This is for our young friend rylan_losce - this discussion forum seems to have many young people facing the dilemma of schoolroom dissection. I don't think I approve of everything being said on it, but it does seem to contain diverse opinions from young people.
http://webgroups.us/animalliberationfront/viewtopic.php?p=7554&sid=a4ebe054490c1a027bb2ec61d52c6c9e
I think older people need to consider that the question of animal abuse is a concern for many thoughtful and discerning young people of today - they are uncomfortable with the complacency, rationalisation and outworn cliché's used to defend animal abuse. Perhaps they have something to say that needs listening to. |
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