QuakerInfo.com Forum

[punkrainbow]

I'll take a middle position here. I apologise if any of these points have been repeated elsewhere. I admit I haven't read the whole thread. I agree that Industrialisation led to a great deal of environmental destruction in the West, (the consequences of which we are currently reaping), yet some substantial goods have emerged as well. As a very premature baby, only in modernity would I have survived. In past centuries, (or even a few decades earlier), I would have died shortly after birth.

The technical and artfully balanced environments we have created have subsequently allowed me as a disabled person to live close to a 'normal life'. I don't think I would have faired so well in Europe in the Middle Ages. For one thing, there would no 'useful work' for a physically disabled person to do. I would be condemned to poverty for life, even if I had survived. Now with mechanised devises including this key board I can carry out useful work, using my brain with minimum physical effort. This trend in Western work of course has associated with the risk of widespread obesity, but this to can be mitigated to an extent using modern science.

Affective antibiotics, family planning, access to clean drinking water and mass communications are just a few other manifest goods. Similarly industrial production has liberated a fair portion of humanity from the scourge of 18 or 19 hour working days, the norm in pre-industrial societies for agricultural workers. If channelled in the right way, such discoveries could liberate all of humanity from poverty and degradation. I say this as both a Democratic Socialist and a member of the Green Party.

Unfortunately, we face two challenges in this regard. The first is the affective distribution of these 'social goods' from wealthy countries which currently monopolise them to the poor countries who have little access to them because they lack the capital. The second is finding new sources of energy which, while they spread these 'social goods' respect the structural limitations of the biosphere as a whole. If we achieve this, Modern Capitalism will be a great deal more humane and compassionate than it is currently. Responsible mechanisation, with a strong social conscience could bring about a happier world. In this way I agree with Oscar Wilde when he said:

[sushil_yadav]

[sushil_yadav]

[punkrainbow]

I agree with the direction of your thought. Would it be possible if you responded to some of the specific points, particularly how to look after disabled persons in a post-mechanised society. What kind of society do you want to see?
_________________
I saw the infinite love of God. I saw also that there was an ocean of darkness and death; but an infinite ocean of light and love, which flowed over the ocean of darkness.

[sushil_yadav]

[Kiahanie]

This repeated pasting of canned responses verges on disrespect. When someone takes the time to attempt dialog, one would hope for more than snippets of a monologue already conducted on innumerable websites.
_________________
"There is a field out beyond right and wrong. I'll meet you there." --Jellaludin Rumi

[sushil_yadav]

[sushil_yadav]

Industrial Society is speeding up the demise of ecosystems by providing jobs to all - education to all.

After Industrial Revolution work turned into extra work, over work, unnecessary work, destructive work.

Most of the people living in cities are engaged in the destructive cycle of
production of consumer goods, selling of consumer goods, buying of
consumer goods.This planet is very small - just 40,000 km in
circumference. Today 50% of world population is living in cities - and
this percentage is increasing day by day.

Provide jobs to all?
Provide education to all? - oh yes, provide jobs/education to all and
very soon the human species will go out of existence.

The entire education system is promoting consumerism, extra work, over work, unnecessary work, destructive work.

People who are getting education in technology/ engineering.... are engaged in production of consumer goods.

People who are getting education in the fields of business, finance, MBA....are engaged in selling of consumer goods.

Most of the people getting education in Arts subjects are also engaged in
selling of consumer goods and services - sales and marketing jobs.

If we destroy ecosystems for food, clothing, shelter, health-care the ecosystems will last longer. If we destroy ecosystems for consumer goods in addition to food, clothing, shelter, health-care the ecosystems will finish much sooner.

Industrial Society has destroyed necessary things [animals, trees, air, water,land] for making unnecessary things [consumer goods].

By providing jobs to all - education to all, Industrial Society is destroying the very things that created and sustained all life on earth for millions of years.

Industrial Society is a curse on this planet.



What would happen to your home if 1000 people entered and started doing work continuously - 24 X 7 - picking up things already lying in the house, breaking them up and making new things out of them without stopping?

A similar thing is happening to the planet - 6.8 billion people
continuously engaging in work - destroying the ecosystems moment by
moment.

Man started destroying "extra" after Industrial Revolution. This "extra"
destruction has risen exponentially in the last 50 years.

Work has turned into overwork, unnecessary work, destructive work. People who are working to provide food, clothing, shelter and healthcare are doing work - rest of the population is engaged in overwork, unnecessary work, destructive work.

Ecosystems are not consumer goods that can be manufactured / created by MultiNational Corporations. Who can undo the damage that has been done to ecosystems by billions of people over a period of 200 - 250 years?



Industrial Society has killed billions of acres of fertile soil by covering it with cement and concrete.This is insanity of the highest degree - insanity raised to the power of infinity.We
have got a very small planet. On this small planet two-thirds of
surface area is water. Only one-third is land - and this includes vast
areas of land that are not fertile - deserts, rocky
mountains, ice/ glaciers. There is very little surface area on
earth which is fertile. It is this fertile soil that has produced food
for millions of species that have lived on land for millions of years. Killing billions of acres of fertile soil is insanity of the highest degree - insanity raised to the power of infinity.The punishment is coming - very soon - punishment of the highest degree - punishment raised to the power of infinity.



"Green Industry", "Green Technology", "Green Development".

These are contradictory terms – these are oxymorons.
Industrialization can never be green – it is impossible.

Industry produces three kinds of waste - solid, liquid and gaseous.

There are only three places on earth where this waste can go - air, water, land.

There is no fourth place on earth where Industrial waste can go.

Industrial Society has produced billions of tonnes of solid, liquid and gaseous waste - billions of tonnes of metal waste, chemical waste, plastic waste, eWaste, nuclear waste.........

This waste has killed, polluted and poisoned rivers, lakes, oceans, underground water, the soil/ land, the air/ sky.

Industrialization can never be green – it is impossible.



Governments and Law Enforcement Agencies have labelled a few Environmentalists as EcoTerrorists.

What are the charges against Environmental Activists? - Destruction of property? - endangering human life?

The Military Industrial Complex is doing much more damage to property -
it is going around carpet bombing entire countries - flattening entire
countries. The Military Industrial Complex is endangering much more
human life - it is actually killing - killing millions in War/ Violence
- directly or indirectly.

Who is the real Terrorist? - Environmentalists or Industrial Society?

The human race has been destroying/ killing animals, trees, air,
water, land and people from the very beginning of civilization. Science and Technology has increased this destructive capacity millions of times.

Every citizen of Industrial Society is using hundreds/ thousands of consumer goods.

Every consumer good is made by killing animals, trees, air, water and land - directly or indirectly. [ more killing of nature takes place when consumer goods are used and discarded]

The per capita killing of animals, trees, air, water and land in
Industrial Society is hundreds of times/ thousands of times greater
than that of pre-industrial society.

Every citizen of Industrial Society is a serial killer - serial killer of animals, trees, air, water and land.

Those who produce consumer goods are killers.

Those who sell consumer goods are killers.

Those who buy consumer goods are killers.

Before Industrialization humans killed Environment primarily for Food, Clothing & Shelter. After industrialization humans are killing environment for Food, Clothing & Shelter plus [thousands of unnecessary] Consumer Goods.

Industrial Society is destroying necessary things[Animals, Trees, Air, Water and Land] for making unnecessary things[Consumer Goods].

The Military Industrial Complex/ Industrial Society
has killed millions of people in War/ Violence. It has decimated all
plant and animal species. It has destroyed all ecosystems. It has
polluted and poisoned the Sky, Land and Oceans. It has raped and
plundered "Mother Earth" in the name of Progress and Development.

The crimes of Industrial Society are millions of times greater than the crimes of Environmentalists.

Comparing the crimes of Environmentalists with the crimes of Industrial Society is like comparing the Lamp with the Sun.

The entire Industrial Society is a Terrorist.

Science and Technology is the Terrorist.

Military Industrial Complex is the Terrorist.
Culture of Consumerism - culture of making, buying and selling is
the Terrorist. Consumerism kills ecosystems - Consumerism is the
biggest act of violence against nature.


We have created a society that rapes, plunders and exploits "Mother Earth" 365 days of the year - and then celebrates Earth Day.

When someone destroys the home of a human being it is considered a crime and the accused is sent to prison.

When the human species collectively destroys the homes [ecosystems] of millions of other species it is called Progress, Growth, Development.

The police, the law, the judiciary are trying to catch a few criminals - they do not realize the entire Industrial Society is criminal.

Psychologists and Psychiatrists are trying to classify a few people as abnormal - they do not realize the entire Industrial Society is abnormal.



What is most amazing about the issue of sustainability is the fact that modern society is trying to sustain the unsustainable - it is trying to sustain a consumerist system which has existed for almost zero percent of human existence on earth. The present consumerist lifestyle has existed for about 100 years. If we com...pare this with the total duration of human existence on earth it comes to almost zero percent.

The two things that have destroyed Environment are - Overpopulation and Overconsumerism.

Science, Technology and Industrialization are responsible for both these problems. World population was less than 1 billion in the year 1800. Nature had its way of controlling population through disease and death caused by bacteria and virus. When man made medicines/ antibiotics he created disaster - population increased very rapidly. In the absence of "Industrial Agriculture" the feeding capacity of soil would have kept population under control. If Industrial Revolution had not happened, environmental destruction due to production of consumer goods would not exist. In the absence of Science, Technology and "Industrial Revolution" we would not be facing the two problems that have caused destruction of ecosystems - overpopulation and overconsumerism.

If "Industrial Revolution" had not happened what would be the scenario today?

The feeding capacity of soil would have kept population under control.

Diseases caused by virus and bacteria would have kept population under control.

Maybe I would'nt be existing today - and billions of others may not have existed - but millions/ billions of humans would exist [just like they existed before Industrialization]

Most ecosystems would be hundreds of times/ thousands of times in better shape than today.

Millions of other species that have been decimated by Industrial Society would be existing in very healthy numbers - their population levels thousands of times greater than what they are now.

Providing food, clothing, shelter and healthcare is good. But did "Industrial Society" stop at that?

Do we have an Industrial Society that only provides food, clothing, shelter and healthcare to people?

No - the jokers tried to sell hundreds of consumer goods to all citizens of Industrial Society. They tried to make all people consumerists.

Industrial Society started destroying ecosystems for "consumer goods" in addition to destroying them for food, clothing and shelter.

You cannot do this on a small planet that is just 40,000 km in circumference. If you live this way you end up destroying all ecosystems - you end up decimating all other species - you end up destroying animals, trees, air, water and land - the very things that created and sustained all life on earth.



The earth is sick.

Ecosystems are dying.

Animals, trees, air, water and land are dying.

People say - why bother, it was meant to happen this way, nature will take care of itself.

When people fall sick - they rush to the doctor to save themselves.

When people fall sick - they rush to the hospital to save themselves.

Insane, abnormal, selfish, criminal human species.



Almost every country has been claiming its green cover is increasing.

How can this ever be true?

A fully grown tree is cut down in seconds/ minutes.

It takes 20 years for a tree to grow fully.

The rate of destruction of fully grown trees is hundreds of thousands
of times greater than the rate of replacement of fully grown trees.

And only a small percentage of trees that are planted survive to grow into healthy adult trees.

And even if you manage to replace trees how are you going to replace
the population of millions of species of animals, birds and insects
that lived in the forest and died when the forest was cut down.

Secondly where are you planting new trees? You can plant new trees on forest land only if forest land remains forest land.

But this is not the case.

We have got a very small planet whose circumference is just 40,000 km.
On this small planet two-thirds of surface area is water. Included in
the remaining land area are deserts, rocky mountains and glaciers which
do not support vegetation.

If the soil is fertile and gets rain it will grow forests, trees,
plants, vegetation by itself. This is how nature grew all the forests
in this world.

Before the arrival of man all the land that could grow forests had forests on it.

Then the genius human species arrived on the scene.

First he cut down forests for fire, then he cut down forests for
agriculture and villages. After Industrial Revolution forests were cut
down for towns and cities, for setting up industries/ factories, for
mining and extraction of raw material/minerals, for railways, for road
network.

So once the forest is cut down the land is taken up for agriculture,
for cattle grazing, for industry, for towns and cities, for rail and
road network.

So where are the new trees being planted? Where are they growing up?

How can green cover ever increase?

Lies, lies, lies .........blatant lies.

The rate of destruction of forests has risen exponentially after Industrial Revolution.

One can know the truth by looking at the satellite pictures of forests



Why did God create the insane human species that is ready to do
everything for the wrong cause and nothing for the right cause – a
species which is willing to do everything to destroy the ecosystems and
nothing to save the ecosystems.

Man is ready to kill and get killed for religion, for country, for honour, for power, for money and fame - But not for environment.

Millions have been killed over trivial issues and causes.
Millions have died for trivial issues and causes.

How many people have died for environment? How many people have died for
the most important / precious things on earth – animals, trees, air,
water and land – the very things that created and sustained all life on
earth.

Most of the ecosystems are already gone. The
little that remains is dying moment by moment. The situation is
extremely critical but the human response is limited to the same old
insanity – bring this technology, bring that technology - bring this technology, bring that technology.

Environmentalism has failed.
Environmentalism never existed.
It was Pseudo-Environmentalism all the way.


When 3000 people died in World Trade Center collapse the west was outraged - Killers, Murderers, Terrorists - they cried out. America vowed to smoke out the culprits - attacked Afghanistan, flattened the country and killed hundreds of thousands of people [directly or indirectly].

When American company "Union Carbide"... killed 20,000 people in Bhopal, India the same desire for justice was not shown by the west.

Why? - Is this not killing, murder, terrorism?

There are hundreds of insecticides/ pesticides that are banned in western countries but the west is selling millions of tonnes of these chemicals in asia - leading to millions of deaths [directly or indirectly].

Is this not killing, murder, terrorism?

The west is shipping millions of tonnes of toxic , hazardous waste to asian countries for recycling - leading to millions of deaths [directly or indirectly].

Is this not killing, murder, terrorism?

The Military Industrial Complex has killed millions of people in wars. No terrorist organization has killed that many people.

Industry kills - Industry kills humans, Industry kills animals, Industry kills trees, Industry kills air, Industry kills water, Industry kills land.

Industry is the killer - Industry is the murderer - Industry is the
terrorist.



Destruction of ecosystems will soon lead to collapse of Industrial Society.

Humans have decimated millions of other species - very soon it will be the turn of Humans to get decimated.

But even decimation of humans will not save ecosystems - only a total wipe-out of humans will save ecosystems.

If a few million humans survive they will again try to build another Industrial Society because they have seen such a society.

Only human extinction will work.

When the human species appears again there must be no memory of Industrialization and consumerism left in the human brain.

It would be best if the human species never ever appears on the planet again.


This planet can only sustain societies that produce their own food.

This planet cannot sustain societies that do not produce their own food.

Everyone in this world is eating food.

But everyone in this world is not producing food.

Today 50% of world population is living in cities. This population is not producing food. A society that does not produce its own food creates unnecessary work to keep itself occupied. People would go crazy if this unnecessary work is not created. A city-based/ non-farming society is mostly engaged in production and selling of consumer goods and services. Work turns into over-work, extra work, destructive work.

When society produces its own food it destroys ecosystems for food, clothing, shelter.

When society does not produce its own food it destroys ecosystems for "consumer goods" in addition to food, clothing, shelter.

Cities existed before Industrial Revolution but their destructive impact was very little because they were not producing consumer goods that are being made today.

We can never save environment if we are destroying extra - We can never save environment if we destroy it for "consumer goods" in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

It is impossible to save environment as long as cities exist.

It is impossible to save environment if we have societies that do not produce their own food.



Over-exploitation of ecosystems became possible only due to modern technology/ machines.

In the absence of modern technology/ machines it would be impossible for man to destroy all ecosystems.

If modern technology/ machines had not come into existence man would
have probably destroyed some ecosystems on land [forests] - and that
too at a much slower rate than that of the present Industrial Society.

It would have been impossible for man to destroy ecosystems in the sea/ oceans.

It would have been impossible for man to carry out largescale mining
activity and destroy ecosystems on the surface and deep inside the
earth.

It would have been impossible for man to poison the earth with thousands of toxic chemicals.

It would have been impossible for man to generate billions of tonnes of
solid, liquid and gaseous waste that has poisoned the air, water and
land - the entire planet.

It would have been impossible for man to generate billions of tonnes of
metal waste, plastic waste, eWaste, nuclear waste...... that has
poisoned the entire planet.

The Machine has killed all ecosystems.

It is impossible to save the remaining ecosystems as long as the machine exists.

The Machine will devour everything that remains on earth.

Machine is the killer.

Kill the machine.



The shameless, insane, abnormal and criminal human species
gets alarmed only when other species are about to go extinct – not before. And
even this late concern is fake - how could it ever be real.

The crime happens much before extinction of species. The tragedy happens much
before extinction of species.

This planet was made for millions of species - not for man alone.

The crime/ tragedy happened much earlier than extinction when man decimated all
other species.

The crime/ tragedy happened much earlier when the population of each species
dropped from millions to thousands and hundreds.

How would humans feel if the roles were reversed and the following happened.

All the animals of the world join hands to decimate the human species.

Humans are outraged , they cry out - killers, murderers, criminals, terrorists.

The animals say - "what are you complaining about?".

We are so compassionate - we did'nt kill all of you.

You should be grateful that we did'nt make you extinct.

There are 10 of you still alive on every continent.



Jobs or Environment?

Economy or Environment?

These are the questions that are being asked today.

This is insanity raised to the power of infinity.

Do we need to discuss, debate and argue for 100 years to know the answer?

Do we need to do research for 100 years to know the answer?

What would be the response of this genius society if professional killers said - you should not stop us from killing people - if you do that you are taking away our jobs.

Jobs are killing ecosystems, work is killing ecosystems, economy is killing ecosystems - work has turned into overwork, unnecessary work, extra work, destructive work.

Industrial Society is destroying necessary things [animals, trees, air, water, land] for making unnecessary things [consumer goods].

Without environment humans will not even exist.

Without environment millions of other species will not exist.

We are alive because of nature - we owe our very existence to nature.

But this insane, abnormal and criminal "Industrial Society" continues to choose jobs instead of environment - economy instead of environment.

Insanity raised to the power of infinity.



Out of millions of species the human species is the only species which is insane enough to believe that food comes from money.

Millions of other species have lived on earth for millions of years. Their food did not come from money.

Food does not come from money - food comes from nature - food grows because of nature - food exists because of fertile soil, water, air, sunlight.......

Industrial Society has killed, polluted, poisoned the very things that produce food.

You can load trillions of dollars into a rocket and send it to the moon - you will not be able to buy a single grain of food over there.

Money is paper, money is plastic - money is not food.

Chief Seattle of the Indian Tribe had warned :

"only after the last tree has been cut down, only after the last river has been poisoned, only after the last fish has been caught, only then will you realize that you cannot eat money"



When is this insane society going to understand that it is not just Industrial accidents that destroy ecosystems - all Industrial activity destroys ecosystems.

The Bhopal gas tragedy killed 20,000 people, crippled half a million people for life, killed thousands of animals and birds, killed/ polluted/ poisoned... the air, water and soil.

Union Carbide was making pesticides/ insecticides in its plant. These carcinogenic insecticides and pesticides are killing millions of people all over the world every year - directly or indirectly. These toxic insecticides and pesticides are poisoning millions of acres of soil every year, These toxic insecticides and pesticides are killing millions of animals and birds every year. These toxic insecticides and pesticides are poisoning the underground and above-ground water sources. These toxic insecticides and pesticides have poisoned the entire food chain leading to multiple organ failure, genetic defects, birth defects.

If the Bhopal Gas Tragedy had not happened the toxic insecticides and pesticides produced by Union Carbide would have still led to destruction of ecosystems, killing of humans, animals, birds, air, water and soil.


Recently there was an oil spill in the sea in US. The oil is killing marine life.

Oil kills ecosystems when it spills into the sea.

Oil kills ecosystems even when it does'nt spill into the sea.

If the oil had not spilled into the sea it would have been used to power ships that move around oceans - catching fish, killing marine life, torturing marine life moment by moment. At any given time there are 50,000 ships moving in the oceans.

If the oil had not spilled it would have been used to run millions of cars, other vehicles, aeroplanes - whose exhausts would release millions of tonnes of toxic gases into the atmosphere. That is not all - ecosystems are killed to manufacture millions of cars, trucks, ships and aeroplanes that run on oil.

If the oil had not spilled into the sea it would have been used to run millions of industries and factories - all of which kill ecosystems - animals, trees, air, water, land.


When we make consumer goods we kill Animals/ Trees, Air/ Water and Land - directly or indirectly.

Industrial Society destroys ecosystems - all Industrial Societies destroy ecosystems.

It hardly matters whether it is "Capitalist Industrial Society" - "Communist Industrial Society" - or "Socialist Industrial Society".

Industrial Society destroys ecosystems at every stage of its functioning - when consumer goods are produced - when consumer goods are used - when consumer goods are discarded/ recycled.

Raw material for industry is obtained by cutting up Forests. It is extracted by mining/ digging up the earth. It comes by destroying/ killing Trees, Animals and Land.

Industries/ Factories use Water. The water that comes out of Factories is contaminated with hundreds of toxic chemicals. Industry kills Water. What to speak of Rivers - entire Oceans have been polluted.

Industries burn millions of tonnes of fuel and when raw material is melted/ heated up, hundreds of toxic chemicals are released into the atmosphere. Industry kills Air.

Industrial Society has covered millions of square miles of land with cement and concrete. Industry kills Land.

When consumer goods are discarded/ thrown away in landfills it again leads to destruction of ecosystems.

When consumer goods are recycled, hundreds of toxic chemicals are released into air, water and land.

Consumer goods are sold/ marketed through a network of millions of kilometers of rail / road network and shipping routes which causes destruction of all ecosystems that come in the way.

Industrial Society has generated billions of tonnes of hazardous solid, liquid and gaseous waste - billions of tonnes of metal waste, plastic
waste, eWaste, chemical waste, nuclear waste.


When an Industrial accident happens the focus of entire world shifts to it.

All environmentalists are outraged.

As if the environment was in good shape before the accident and will be in good shape after the accident.

The problem is not Industrial accident -the problem is not any particular Industrial accident - the problem is Industry itself.

Industrial accidents will continue to happen as long as Industry exists.

They will only get bigger and bigger.

Bigger the Industry bigger the Industrial accident.


Industry kills ecosystems when there is an Industrial accident.

Industry kills ecosystems even when there is no Industrial accident.

All Industrial activity is an accident.

All Industrial activity destroys ecosystems.

All Industrial activity kills animals, trees, air, water, land.

All Industrial activity leads to environmental crisis, environmental disaster, environmental catastrophe.

It is impossible to save ecosystems as long as industry exists.




Technology has destroyed ecosystems.

But the Techno-Worshippers of this insane Industrial Society want still more technology, new technology, better technology, advanced technology - they claim that technology will save the ecosystems.

Two thousand years ago the air was clean - it was not contaminated with billions of tonnes of toxic Industrial gases and particulate matter.

Which technology made the air clean? - American?....British?....German?....Japanese?

Two thousand years ago the rivers and oceans were clean - they were not contaminated with billions of tonnes of toxic Industrial waste.

Which technology made the water clean? - American?....British?....German?....Japanese?

Two thousand years ago the planet was full of forests - millions of species thrived - their population was hundreds and thousands of times greater than what it is now.

Which technology made this possible? - American?....British?....German?....Japanese?

Two thousand years ago the oceans were full of fish and other marine species.

Which technology made this possible? - American?....British?....German?....Japanese?

Two thousand years ago billions of tonnes of solid, liquid and gaseous waste did not exist on this planet.

Which technology made this possible? - American?....British?....German?....Japanese?

Two thousand years ago billions of tonnes of metal waste, plastic waste, chemical waste, eWaste, nuclear waste did not exist on this planet.

Which technology made this possible? - American?....British?....German?....Japanese?


Technology does not save ecosystems - it is the absence of technology that saves ecosystems.

Science, technology and industrialization lead to over-exploitation of ecosystems.

Technology is not the saviour of ecosystems - technology is the destroyer of ecosystems.


sushil_yadav
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment