QuakerInfo.com Forum

[Steven]

Hi guys,

I was wondering if anyone would be kind enough to clarify the conservative Quaker stance on the concept of a "second coming" for me please.

I both appreciate and subscribe to the idea that "for Quakers, there's a slow-burn "second coming" which is continually unfolding as believers commit their hearts and hands to Christ's work of peace and justice: and Christ is here now, already." (http://www.am464.net).

However, if Christ - as the light and seed of god, the infinite invisible within all of us, since creation, is older than the historical Christ (as was the view of George Fox) - i.e. the FIRST and eternal coming. Would that mean that Jesus WAS the second coming?! And if so, how does that impact on the Revelations etc.

Maybe the second coming is the A.D experience of christ consciousness because the historical jesus was its catalyst; the actual pivotal moment of transition? That way, Jesus could be the first coming, and those illuminated after him are an expression of the second?

Or maybe the end is nigh and he's on his way?

Your views would be much appreciated

thanks

Steven

[simonstl]

I don't have any answers for Steven, but I'd also be interested in hearing about the subject.

I just enjoyed William Durland's The Apocalyptic Witness, a Pendle Hill pamphlet, and have a hard time squaring what Durland (and I think also George Fox) say in that with what I've heard of premillenialist second coming visions.

Not that it's impossible, of course - I just have a hard time figuring out how you'd get there from here.

[james]

In my corner of Quakerism--mostly theologically liberal Hicksite Quakers in Friends General Conference--we don't spend much time fretting about supernatural events at the end of the world. I don't doubt there are some in my wing of Quakerism who would believe in a literal second coming where believers rise up out of their shirts into heaven, but I doubt there are a great many.

I can't speak to Friends United Meeting or Evangelical Friends International--two more theologically orthodox organizations, especially the latter. Perhaps Bill or someone else can speak to them.

My reading of the Gospels suggests that Jesus and many of his followers were expecting a massive and radical transformation of existence--the coming of the kingdom--very soon, and not 2000 years down the line. And Revelations--well, I would challenge anyone who says they understand those prophecies. It's a fascinating read, a poetic explosion, but it's not the map I'd want if I got lost in the woods after dark.
_________________
James Riemermann
www.nontheistfriends.org
www.liberalquakers.org

[Themis]

Robert Barclay wrote, "There shall be a Resurrection of the Dead, both of the Just and Unjust [Acts 24:15] They that have done Good, unto the Resurrection of Life; and they that have done Evil, unto the Resurrection of Damnation [John 5:29] Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, neither doth Corruption inherit Incorruption [1 Cor. 15:50] Nor is that Body sown that shall be; but God gives it a Body as it has pleased him, and to every Seed his own Body: It is sown in Corruption, it is raised in Incorruption; It is sown in Dishonor, it is raised in Glory; It is sown in Weakness, it is raised in Power; It is sown a Natural Body, it is raised a Spiritual Body. [1 Cor. 15:37-38,42-44]"

http://www.qhpress.org/texts/barclay/catechism/chapter16.html#article23

In Him Always,
Themis
_________________
Christ is our Lord, Saviour, and Friend. He is EVERYTHING!

[LloydLee]

Themis' post is correct, but not exactly on point with regard to the Second Coming. Early Christians seem to have been premillennialists, though postmillennialist and even amillennialist views were developed and supported by respected Christian theologians. In contrast to the long discourses that have accompanied these divergent views, Friends have had very little to say about the milenium, whether Christ would return before or after the millenium, or whether the whole idea of a millenium might be a spiritual reality and not a physical one.

"A Brief Statement of the Doctrines and Principles as ever believed by Friends" issued by North Carolina Yearly Meeting (Conservative) in 1935 makes no mention at all of the Second Coming or of the millienium. The "Brief Synopsis of the Principles and Testimonies of the Religious Society of Friends", adopted by all seven Conservative Yearly Meetings in 1912, is also silent on both topics. I think one can safely conclude that there is no set "[C]onservative Quaker stance on the concept of a 'second coming.'

John Punshon discusses millenialism on pp. 307-314 of "Reasons for Hope" (Friends United Press, 2001), and opines that Friends have been generally cool to theorizing about religious matters, holding rather to the practice as much more important. He also suggests that what early Friends were saying, essentially that the Second Coming happened on an individual-by-individual basis, was theologically original although on shaky ground scripturally. I would defer to him on that point.

--llw

[Themis]

Dear Friends,

In my understanding Early Friends did not believe in the millennium in the way many Protestants do today. The Quaker view is that the Kingdom of God is here now. I must also say that from my studies of Scripture I do not find the view of a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth valid. For more information one could see my articles,

Concerning the Kingdom of God being here and now (my view):

http://s7.invisionfree.com/Truth_Triumphant/index.php?showtopic=5

Concerning other aspects of eschatology see articles here,

http://s7.invisionfree.com/Truth_Triumphant/index.php?showforum=9

For what Early Friends and Conservative Friends today believe one can also read, “The Great Mystery” by George Fox (3rd Volume of his works published by the New Foundation Fellowship). Also the booklet, “Into That Which Cannot be Shaken” by Doug Gwyn, the book “Apocalypse of the Word” by Doug Gwyn and “To All that Would know the Way to the Kingdom” by George Fox. All these publications can be purchased from the New Foundation Fellowship,

http://www.nffuk.org/Publications.aspx .

George Fox’s writing “To All that Would know the Way to the Kingdom” can be found online on our web site,

http://www.ohioyearlymeeting.org/athens8.htm

The only thing we as Friends wait for is the appearing in body (for He is here in Spirit) of Jesus Christ and the final resurrection as the quote from Robert Barclay indicated.

God Bless!

In Him Always,
Themis
_________________
Christ is our Lord, Saviour, and Friend. He is EVERYTHING!

[Shay]

[LloydLee]

Shay is of course correct when saying: "Some Friends, not all. Some don't believe in the first coming or even that a physical God and/or sacrifice of such existed. "

However, the original question concerned the stance of conservative Friends - a particular subset of Quakerism that has historically had no doubt about these matters.

--llw

[Shay]

[Themis]

Dear Friends,

I am a Conservative Friend and I assure everyone that Ohio Yearly Meeting (Conservative), Friends in Christ (U.K.), Stirling Friends Meeting (U.K.) and Athens Christian Friends Meeting (Greece) and all Conservative Friends I know are strongly Christian and have no trouble with "with the story of Jesus".

Here are our web sites,

http://www.ohioyearlymeeting.org/

http://www.rockinghamfriends.org/

http://www.plainquakers.org/

http://uk.geocities.com/log1957an/index.html

http://www.ohioyearlymeeting.org/athens1.htm

http://acfmt.bravehost.com/

Conservative Friends are, “a fellowship of believers in many parts of the world...who have experienced that Jesus Christ abides with us yet and is to be known as the Light within us. In addition to our monthly meeting in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia, we include small meetings in Southeastern Pennsylvania, in Scotland, and in Greece. We seek to build our faith on the sure foundation, the Rock offered to us, that will stand firm through our joys and trials. We find that there is a growing hunger in our world for Jesus, the Bread of Life, to sustain us and to help us grow spiritually. The thirst that is increasing in this parched world can be satisfied by Christ, who comes as Living Water that is offered to us freely, that we need not thirst again. We have experienced that Jesus, the Word of God, can speak to our needs and desires. As you or we hear this Good Shepherd and follow Him, He will bring us to His pastures of righteousness and keep us safe. We have known an emptiness within ourselves, a void, that the things of this world – its diversions, its material things, its lusts, its honors, its achievements – cannot fill. We testify to you that Christ will fill that void. He will make your broken, fragmented and disconnected life whole. As you follow Him, all things will work for good for those who love Him.” http://www.rockinghamfriends.org/ourfaith.htm

God Bless!

In Friendship,
Themis
_________________
Christ is our Lord, Saviour, and Friend. He is EVERYTHING!

[henry]

Shay says he has met conservative frineds who have trouble with the story of Jesus.

I feel led to point out that given the faith of conservative riends, anyone who has trouble withn the story of Jesus cannot be a 'conservative 'friend.

[BillSamuel]

As things have evolved, this becomes an issue of whether you are defining Conservative Friend by affiliation or by the way Conservative Friends originally defined themselves. Today there are three yearly meetings which retain the Conservative term in their name. One of them has had a Clerk who worked for Friends General Conference, a "liberal" grouping. A significant proportion of Friends in "Conservative" meetings are quite "liberal" in their theology.
_________________
Bill Samuel, Silver Spring, MD, USA
Co-Coordinator, Friends in Christ

[Themis]

The question is which Conservative Yearly Meeting Bill and Shay are referring to because if they mean Iowa YM (Conservative) most Conservative Friends I know do not consider them anymore Conservative.

In Friendship,
Themis
_________________
Christ is our Lord, Saviour, and Friend. He is EVERYTHING!

[Themis]

Dear Friends,

There is also another consideration which I feel I must submit, although I am afraid it might offend some and I truly do not want to offend anyone. Conservative Friends have a history of faithfully upholding the Christian Quaker Faith if now some people or even Meetings or even Yearly Meetings which were born Conservative Friends or who traditionally were Conservative Friends do not agree anymore with the Conservative Quaker Faith and Practice and want to be Liberal or even Evangelical wouldn’t the honorable thing to do be to change their affiliation either to Liberal or to Evangelical Quakerism? Why stay and try to change us or confuse others concerning Conservative Quaker Faith and Practice? Isn’t it enough that certain groups have managed to completely change Quakerism into a totally different Faith from what it originally was? One only needs to study 17th and 18th century Quaker books to see the huge difference (i.e. Fox, Barclay, Penn, etc.).

Again I sincerely do not want to offend anyone or start any argument but I really felt that I should share my above thoughts.

In Friendship,
Themis
_________________
Christ is our Lord, Saviour, and Friend. He is EVERYTHING!

[Frank]

Themis, I'm sure you're offending no one, and the various understandings of "conservative" can be disconcerting. In Iowa, for example, because of 19th Century divisions we have the the "Iowa Yearly Meeting," the larger group of friends who identify themselves evangelical; and the smaller "Iowa Yearly Meeting (Conservative)," whose members as a rule are more liberal in politics and outlook on social issues.

It's useful to remember that the Friends here who now self-identify as "Conservative," once were just that --- holding to traditional Quaker faith and practice against a 19th century move among many "liberal" Quakers, including those in meetings now grouped in the Iowa Yearly Meeting, to adapt techniques and practices used by other mainline Protestant denominations. But the ground has shifted under that word "conservative."

Today, members of both yearly meetings feel their meetings most accurately reflect where those who founded the Quaker movement so long ago would be had they been Methuselahs and survived into the 21st century.

You may disagree, I might disagree, but such is human nature and it's unlikely to change.