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Anthony
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 1239
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 Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| bradleyp wrote: |
I like the following quote from Kiahanie:
“But then, I wasn't raised in that culture, so I don't expect to understand much of it.”
This is a statement I’d like to hear from global activists more often when they protest, for instance, Canadian “outrages”, the seal hunt and other events of cultural importance to “traditional cultures”
Anthony, I appreciate and applaud your views, but suppose there was something you culturally loved (a meal other cultures found offensive, or an event others frowned upon that made you connect to generations of lives before yours), and, in your culture’s means of doing so, strived to protect it, how would you react to people saying this that and the other thing ought to be forbidden?
I cringe at Shark Fin Soup, personally. both the idea of it, and the apparent distructive manner in which they are harvested. I’d like to see it better managed if “they” have to eat it, maybe have specially bred sharks up on offer, commercially bred ones, not wild creatures (leave the wild ones to their own devices as it where). That may, for instance, be more ecologically sound, instead of banning a cultural oddity just because I don’t like it. Thoughts? |
Friend bradley 
You have never seemed to grasp the issue of this thread - it's not about you or me but the animals who pay the price for what humans demand and deprive them of: their bodies, lives, freedom, comfort, peace, communities, well being, love and trust. They are the victims not us, no matter how we try and disguise or excuse this fact, culturally or otherwise, it's not about me, me, me... 
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"There is not an animal on Earth, nor a bird that flies on it's wings, but they are communities like you" The Koran 6:38 |
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Shay
Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| Anthony wrote: |
Friend bradley
You have never seemed to grasp the issue of this thread - it's not about you or me but the animals who pay the price for what humans demand and deprive them of: their bodies, lives, freedom, comfort, peace, communities, well being, love and trust. They are the victims not us, no matter how we try and disguise or excuse this fact, culturally or otherwise, it's not about me, me, me... |
To be fair, Anthony, that is your thrust, not the thread's. The thread itself is a discussion between peers, not a soapbox for one point of view. |
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Anthony
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 1239
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Shay wrote: |
| Anthony wrote: |
Friend bradley
You have never seemed to grasp the issue of this thread - it's not about you or me but the animals who pay the price for what humans demand and deprive them of: their bodies, lives, freedom, comfort, peace, communities, well being, love and trust. They are the victims not us, no matter how we try and disguise or excuse this fact, culturally or otherwise, it's not about me, me, me... |
To be fair, Anthony, that is your thrust, not the thread's. The thread itself is a discussion between peers, not a soapbox for one point of view. |
Shay, you rarely let me down. This was a response to bradley who chose to post his comments and invited a response.
Did I imply that this was NOT a discussion amongst peers? Perhaps it was my tone that upset you, hmm, kettle calling the pan black. Perhaps I am still a troll after all. 
I started this thread as a plea to quakers to witness against avoidable acts of violence - mental, emotional and physical - against animals. I am used to being challenged, ignored and at times ridiculed for being on my 'soapbox'. However, never has an apologist been able argue against the facts of animal abuse with any credence. It is always done with distortion and self-interest. The excuse of cultural norms is only the latest argument. I don't think we've had that one before, it makes an interesting change from sentient cabbages and what to do with the left over animals if we don't kill them.
It is of no consequence if I am accused of being on a soapbox - except that it detracts from the facts and is simply a put-down without merit and is of no consequence. It is not about me! What is more important is whether what I say is true or not and does it need saying, and if not, why not? I am simply responding!
I reiterate: most of the arguments from apologists for animal exploitation is about meeting the desires and wants of man (rarely, these days, is it about need). It seems mainly to be all about me, me, me and not about the victims. Soapbox or no soapbox, it is almost impossible to argue against the facts - but denial is very strong and persistent. I suggest that quakers should not be passively condoning intentional and avoidable violence against any creature, surely it is not in harmony with our peace testimony and witness against violence. For the Society of Friends to continue to ignore this is surely disingenuous.
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"There is not an animal on Earth, nor a bird that flies on it's wings, but they are communities like you" The Koran 6:38 |
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bradleyp
Joined: 06 Apr 2004
Posts: 108
Location: Southern Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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I think I thought that my last post was about management as a method toward preservation, you know, instead of destroying a species, have a line of a species that may be farmed for consumption, like mussels for instance, while maintaining and forbidding the hunting of wild animals so that those may flourish in nature as they ought to.
I used the example of Sharks and the phenomenon of Shark Fin Soup as an example. The culture that most consumes the specialty could have it, theoretically, if they rased a strain of sharks specially to be eaten, and ignored the endangered species and left them to repopulate. This is what I’m saying. Proper management not completely quitting cold turkey.
You’ll pardon me, please, if I’m still way off base here.
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Bradley P.
“The great thing about the next day is that it mostly gives us a chance to wake up and live better and be better people than we may have been the day before based on the lessons of previous days.” - me in my own head. |
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Anthony
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 1239
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 5:25 am Post subject: |
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| Anthony wrote: |
| You have never seemed to grasp the issue of this thread... |
Friend bradley
I think I may have confused you with someone else who used to post some very odd and not nice posts to this topic. Following your very reasonable response to my above criticism I trawled through the backlog of posts and I realised it maybe wasn't you. I most sincerely apologise, nevertheless, breeding creatures for slaughter so that the more endangered ones might flourish is not good as the violent abuse continues.
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"There is not an animal on Earth, nor a bird that flies on it's wings, but they are communities like you" The Koran 6:38 |
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bradleyp
Joined: 06 Apr 2004
Posts: 108
Location: Southern Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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Apology accepted, Anthony. I try to not be nasty to people online and offline. I try to post constructive posts, hopefully furthering the discussion or I just don’t post at all. Personally.
Could you very briefly give me an example of our species abuse of others so that I could be clear on what you mean. Or at least remind me.
I’ll tell you honestly and bluntly that I wanted to drill you on the Lion and it’s “demand and deprivation of Zebras of: their bodies, lives, freedom, comfort, peace, communities, well being, love and trust.” To make a point that all that is done during the Lion’s activities during daily life, but I chose to only tell you that I wanted to drill you on it because, that wouldn’t have been fair of me, because maybe that isn’t want you where talking about. But I will just say Lions as an example do exactly what you explain that we as humans do, but not on an industrial scale. True isn’t it though?
Again, I wish to remind you that I don’t disagree with you about preservation and conservation.
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Bradley P.
“The great thing about the next day is that it mostly gives us a chance to wake up and live better and be better people than we may have been the day before based on the lessons of previous days.” - me in my own head. |
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Anthony
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 1239
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| Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| bradleyp wrote: |
Could you very briefly give me an example of our species abuse of others so that I could be clear on what you mean. Or at least remind me.
I will just say Lions as an example do exactly what you explain that we as humans do, but not on an industrial scale. True isn’t it though?
Again, I wish to remind you that I don’t disagree with you about preservation and conservation. |
bradley do we agree?
There are many excuses to justify animal abuse, one of them being that they kill each other on a daily basis in the wild. As human animals we aspire to a higher state and we no longer need to exploit and abuse other creatures. Those in the wild have no choice but to be predatory, this is their nature and is essential for survival.
I have serious reservations about culling for whatever reason, what I do feel strongly about is that the culling becomes a perverted and sadistic pleasure.
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"There is not an animal on Earth, nor a bird that flies on it's wings, but they are communities like you" The Koran 6:38 |
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Chip
Joined: 07 Jul 2009
Posts: 114
Location: Blairsville, Georgia
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| Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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As a quick journey through Youtube will demonstrate, the abuse endured by animals in factory farming situations is often horrendous. Yup, it is. Raising and then killing some species simply for our pleasure is a thing I no longer want to support.
Lions kill Zebras and Robins kill Earthworms. They run on an automatic pilot system in such matters. We don't. We have the ability to reason about our pleasures and our sustenance while Lions and Robins do not. Simple as that.
It's true that there are more humane (not truly humane but an improvement) ways of raising, killing and consuming animals. I'm in an area where I can buy such meat from a local slaughterhouse. (For me) it would still be wrong. And I find that in these discussions, most people who bring up the possibility of "humane" raising and killing don't actually get their animal products that way.
YMMV
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Anthony
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 1239
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| Chip wrote: |
| And I find that in these discussions, most people who bring up the possibility of "humane" raising and killing don't actually get their animal products that way. |
Either way the issue is ignored, denied or simply not understood.
_________________
"There is not an animal on Earth, nor a bird that flies on it's wings, but they are communities like you" The Koran 6:38 |
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bradleyp
Joined: 06 Apr 2004
Posts: 108
Location: Southern Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Anthony wrote: |
...I have serious reservations about culling for whatever reason, what I do feel strongly about is that the culling becomes a perverted and sadistic pleasure. |
I guess I disagree with you on culling. But I thought you where talking about industry.
On culling, there are acceptable uses for it even from an environmental standpoint. If an introduced species became such a destructive nuisance, destroying other animal life and other connected life, and the environment, to the point of otherwise being uncontrollable, would it not be right for us as reasoning human-beings to cull the population of the introduced species so to protect indigenous species and environments?
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Bradley P.
“The great thing about the next day is that it mostly gives us a chance to wake up and live better and be better people than we may have been the day before based on the lessons of previous days.” - me in my own head. |
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Anthony
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 1239
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| bradleyp wrote: |
| Anthony wrote: |
...I have serious reservations about culling for whatever reason, what I do feel strongly about is that the culling becomes a perverted and sadistic pleasure. |
I guess I disagree with you on culling. But I thought you where talking about industry. |
I responded to your comments about farming when I said, "...breeding creatures for slaughter so that the more endangered ones might flourish is not good as the violence and abuse continues."
| bradleyp wrote: |
| On culling, there are acceptable uses for it even from an environmental standpoint. If an introduced species became such a destructive nuisance, destroying other animal life and other connected life, and the environment, to the point of otherwise being uncontrollable, would it not be right for us as reasoning human-beings to cull the population of the introduced species so to protect indigenous species and environments? |
We forget that animals managed quite well before man started to interfere with their habitats, commandeered the land and messed about with the eco-structure, including the introduction of new species. In the end, because of man interference, the animals must be slaughtered. I do agree that there may be times when culling may seem the only way left to control overpopulation, yet culling by killing is not necessary when there are birth control measures that are available.
Quite often the perceived need to cull is an excuse to go out with weapons and kill as an excuse to cull - to indulge oneself in the sadistic pleasure of killing for killing sake. Macho men with guns...
_________________
"There is not an animal on Earth, nor a bird that flies on it's wings, but they are communities like you" The Koran 6:38 |
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bradleyp
Joined: 06 Apr 2004
Posts: 108
Location: Southern Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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Going back to the Quaker Concern part for a moment, Anthony, I’m curious, did you pose the original question to your Meeting and what had your Meeting decided to do on a grassroots level.
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Bradley P.
“The great thing about the next day is that it mostly gives us a chance to wake up and live better and be better people than we may have been the day before based on the lessons of previous days.” - me in my own head. |
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Anthony
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 1239
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| Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:17 am Post subject: |
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| bradleyp wrote: |
| Going back to the Quaker Concern part for a moment, Anthony, I’m curious, did you pose the original question to your Meeting and what had your Meeting decided to do on a grassroots level. |
A good and welcome question, bradley. I have tried to keep my meeting sensitive to this issue.
_________________
"There is not an animal on Earth, nor a bird that flies on it's wings, but they are communities like you" The Koran 6:38 |
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Anthony
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
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McGuffey
Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 581
Location: Long Beach, Ca.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 6, 2010 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| I just read an interesting article regarding animal rights activist Brigit Bardot, who created a firestorm in the French press when she proposed that the Muslim religous tradition of "halal" , and the Jewsih tradtion of "kosher", which entail ritualized killing of animals, involved inflicting unessecary pain. Has anyone any information on what the religous ritual killing of "halal and "kosher" practices actually entail, and what relgious benefit is claimed by its practitioneers ? |
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