QuakerInfo.com Forum

[bradleyp]

I didn’t want to hijack the “prepared ministry” thread with this topic, even though it is related, I think.

I was wondering, if you ever experienced someone who negatively questioned / doubted the existence of “un-programmed worship meetings” that are held without paid and highly educated minsters to oversee and lead them. How do/did you explain to someone that such gatherings do happen.

Briefly, I’ve been thinking on it, and other than perhaps saying “it does happen, the Lord leads untrained people to speak”, I’m not sure what else to say, what have you said to explain the experience in the past?
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Bradley P.
Somewhere along the pathway back, the pathway forward, wherever it leads, I wish for an interesting walk.

[Anthony]

[Jim Wilson]

I like to compare this kind of Meeting for Worship to more ordinary groups. There are many human group activities that do not have highly educated leaders or paid specialists. Here are some examples: a sewing circle, a group that meets to play cards (bridge, poker, etc.), a book club, a quilting group, family gatherings, amateur sports groups, people who get together regularly to share a meal or go to a movie, etc.

Take the example of a group of friends who regularly get together to play cards, say bridge. None of them are paid. They may or may not belong to a larger group of bridge-players, but it doesn't effect their gathering one way or the other. The authority, should disputes arise, is the rules of the game and their own history and experience.

This kind of human interaction is common; in some ways I suspect that it is the norm. We don't often find it in a religious context and so it appears out of place; but I think that says more about how we as a culture have turned religion into a specialist's sphere than it does about religion itself. There are regularly held religious observances that are leaderless in the sense of havng a paid specialist; I am thinking of Jewish Sabbath Ceremonies that take place in the home, Confucian Ancestor Veneration which is also home centered and does not require a specialist's presence, small bible study groups spontaneously formed (this also applies to other non-bible based traditions; I know of a number of Buddhist groups that gather to study their scriptures), Christmas and Easter dinners and gatherings where those gathered focus specifically on the religious dimension, and there are many more.

Looked at in this way, the unprogrammed Meeting for Worship, without paid clergy or the presence of someone with certified specialist's training, fits right in with a broad spectrum of human activity and is not so unusual.

Best wishes,

Jim
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www.shapingwords.blogspot.com

[Anthony]

I can understand there being a need for a paid person to carry out secular duties of a church or meeting house in the absence of members willing or able to do it for themselves, although members have carried out such duties since the beginning of Quakerism and in at least one other religion of which I am aware. But why would one need a paid minister to lead and guide the spiritual well being of members. Being educated in the letter does not mean that they have attained a spiritual insight that warrants them to guide or lead others. What are they actually educated or specialist in that cannot be researched by members of the church or meeting? Did George Fox not realise this when he said that, "Christ had come to teach his people himself," and that there was no need for schools, colleges or universities for teaching Christ. Surely, it is a waste of money paying clergy when they are no more spiritual than their flock. Their education would perhaps be of more value in some secular profession and the money that paid their salaries could then be spent more discernibly.

[CelticNorth]

Love the photo, Anthony, and the quote from the Koran at the bottom of your post. My copy of the Holy Qur'an is a Saudi Arabian edition, in English, and while many people wouldn't know the difference between biblical Sarah and a Surah, it is nice to see sayings from the other Abrahamhic faith tradion posted here.

[Anthony]

[Shay]

I'm trying to think, I don't think I've ever had to explain it to someone who negatively questioned or doubted the existence (what does that mean?) of unprogrammed meetings.

I've had to explain it to people who didn't know what it was, but no one's ever said bad things I had to counter.

[CelticNorth]

The arguments I have heard seem to center on numerous and intangible questions which question the authority and authenticity of the religious experieince present at a Quaker Meeting. Haivng been to "programed" services of Catholic, Methodist, Luthern, Baptist, Mennonite, Congregational, Church of God and Pentacostal Christian sects, I still find the "Quietist" Quaker Meeting most desireable in obtaining peace of mind and stillness for facilitating a direct communion with the Devine. Much like the "moment of silence" now permitted in civic gatherings to foster group reflection in a public setting, the unprogrammed Quaker Meeting merely predates the benefits of the use of silence for one to transcend into private communion.

[bradleyp]

The incident that I had was that the person doubted what I had said about a faith that doesn’t emphasize a paid ministry. The person I was talking with didn’t believe a “church” could run without a minister, and when the conversation went on, it seemed combative, like the person was saying “that doesn’t happen in my religion so it’s impossible that it happens anywhere else.”

I have to admit that the conversation went that way after the other person spoke briefly on the length of time that a person needed to take in order to become a trained minister, aside from choosing which church to actually join and seek to perform ministerial duties in. I then casually mentioned that there are people out there who don’t have ministers...

I like the imagery used, of bees and other leaderless activities. I honestly never really thought of it in terms of family traditions at Christmas or whichever. Quite wonderful. I like it.
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Bradley P.
Somewhere along the pathway back, the pathway forward, wherever it leads, I wish for an interesting walk.

[jnsn]

It might be fruitful to picture western religion on a kind of continuum.
First you decide you don't need a translator, then you don't need the Pope, then you don't need the King, then you don't need the bishops, then not councils, then not learned pastors, then not pastors, then not the laity, then maybe not the Bible, then maybe not a Deity. Quakers have come a long way, baby

[bradleyp]

That is an interesting way to put it.

My grandfather apparently came to that conclusion in his early life via the tribulations of the two World Wars, and even though he abandoned all those things you listed, family lore tells it that he was a better “Christian” than he might have been following the Christian religion of his childhood, even with the no deity concept of the Communist system he was interested in.

Not that everyone comes to that "end" the same way as my grandfather..

The friend that I spoke with hasn’t and probably won’t ever come to that point yet, and this may be to their credit and right to do so...
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Bradley P.
Somewhere along the pathway back, the pathway forward, wherever it leads, I wish for an interesting walk.

[jnsn]

To my understanding, Communism posits the state as the deity. But to a stateless communist, I suppose it would feel essentially non-theistic.

-John

[bradleyp]

I’m not sure my grandfather went that far as to make the state his god. But, he evidently was a person who believed in equality, in shared property etc. The thing is he limited his church attendance to weddings and funerals after returning from the war. He didn’t seem to like the minister structure and the gap between the clergy (rich) and the people in the pew (mostly poor).
That’s how I understand it anyway. He may have believed in God, but not in the men that preached, perhaps....

Anyway, I think grandfather would have liked minister-less Quakerism for it’s personal experience rather than being preached at regularly.
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Bradley P.
Somewhere along the pathway back, the pathway forward, wherever it leads, I wish for an interesting walk.

[jnsn]

Friend Dan- that is what I meant in the second half, without a communist state around them, any individual communist might feel like you described your Grandfather to feel. The communist state is anti-religious because it does not want any competition about peoples allegiance.

Also you may have noticed that its still possible to get "preached at" among Friends but I certainly know what you meant.

I do think there are certain people who would hardly regard a un-programmed meeting to be a bona fide religious event. I like the looks in response to the answer to "well, what happens at the meeting?"

[bradleyp]

jnsn, can you share an example of what you’ve encountered when you described an un-programmed Meeting?
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Bradley P.
Somewhere along the pathway back, the pathway forward, wherever it leads, I wish for an interesting walk.