QuakerInfo.com Forum

[Jim Wilson]

Good Friends:

I would like to suggest that if we continue with a discussion about Islam that it be moved to a separate thread dedicated to that topic. The original topic of the poster was not about Islam; rather it was about the civillian casualties in Iraq and I suggest that keeping the focus on that for this thread.

I find myself in a bit of a mixed position regarding this discussion. First, I disagree with Sylvanus regarding the source of the civillian deaths. The coalition forces have been resolute in refusing to count Iraqi deaths, but independent observers would put the 10,000 at the very lowest end of the count. I think it is relevant that the civil society of Iraq which mitigated against sectarian violence was destroyed, systematically, by the U.S. attack and that therefore those deaths due to sectarian violence (which were predicted by several sources) are attributable to the U.S. unwarranted, propaganda based, attack.

But even if one accepts that the sectarian violence is not the 'fault' of the U.S., there are still very numerous deaths due to direct U.S. fire; from the initial bombings during 'shock and awe' to the systematic destruction of several cities by U.S. forces and contractors; e.g. Fallujah. The number of civillian deaths is certainly very high and considering that the basis for the attack was a deliberate lie on the part of the Bush administration, I think a good case can be made for that administration, along with Blair, being war criminals.

Regarding Islam; I have much ambivalence. Most of it comes from the feeling that when Moslems speak of tolerance it all seems to be one way; the west is supposed to be tolerant of Islam, but there does not seem to be any feeling, let alone sense of embarassment, or any kind of reform movement, among Moslems to increase tolerance in their own societies. If there is to be a genuine rapproachment I would like to observe some sense among Moslems that Islamic countries need to seriously engage in working on their own ground.

Best wishes,

Jim
_________________
www.shapingwords.blogspot.com

[punkrainbow]

when Moslems speak of tolerance it all seems to be one way; the west is supposed to be tolerant of Islam, but there does not seem to be any feeling, let alone sense of embarassment, or any kind of reform movement, among Moslems to increase tolerance in their own societies.

As someone who went to school with many young British Muslims, all I can say is that the spirit of liberal Islam is alive and well. I was respected and I for my part respected their faith in return. The call for tolerance may be one way in certain societies, but that's not been my own albeit limited experience.

On the question of 'Islamic societies' I always find it hypocritical of some Westerners who call for Muslims to 'reform' when less than two centuries ago in my own country, women and working-class men were denied the vote, homosexuality was punished with imprisonment and hard-labour, while missionaries went round the world importing Christianity with the gun. How can a country like the United States convincingly lecture say Saudi Arabia lecture on Human Rights when white settlers oversaw the systematic extermination of Native Americans and kept African slaves?

In any discussions of Islamic societies it is important always to demonstrate a little humility. Islam is currently going through a religious Reformation as it confronts the forces of globalisation and capitalist democracy. In Europe we had our Wars of Religion; it is arguable that Islam is going through a radical reorientation which is causing its polarisation between extremists and moderates. What form will win out in the end is any-ones guess. I'm backing this horse- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Islam
_________________
I saw the infinite love of God. I saw also that there was an ocean of darkness and death; but an infinite ocean of light and love, which flowed over the ocean of darkness.

[Jim Wilson]

Dear Punk Rainbow:

Thanks for the response. But it left me feeling somewhat puzzled. If one wants to bring past bad behavior into the discussion, I could make a very long list of Islamic fueled examples; say the destruction of Judaism, Christianity and Paganism on the Arabian Peninsula, the destruction of Zoroastrianism and Buddhism, etc. And more recent examples exist such as the hostility towards Bahai.

But that was not my point. My point is that today in every single western country, from Australia to Sweden to Canada, Moslems are free to worship, proselytize, and organize. In contrast, there are a number of Islamic countries where other religions are not free to do so, where you can be arrested for being a Buddhist or even possessing a Bible. I find this discrepancy significant and it makes me reluctant to accept the idea that the west needs reform on this issue. Rather I draw the opposite conclusion.

Sincerely,

Jim
_________________
www.shapingwords.blogspot.com

[Anthony]

[michaeldavidjay]

@Anthony --
Muslims do proselytize. I had one speak to me using a script designed for Christians... Unfortunately for her, I understand that the Bible is not a Koran, and I do not expect it to be.

I almost laughed -- I was tempted to correct parts of the script to make it 'better.'

(By the way -- I was not offended. She and I exchanged some blasphemies, and we have talked about religion since then. The script might have worked if I were part of the KJV only movement... it seems some of it was borrowed from their rantings)
_________________
Do Friends speak to today's condition, or are we only a historical footnote?

[Anthony]

[michaeldavidjay]

a full quarter of Muslims in the US are converts, and they do proselytize here. I guess in the UK, they have decided that the English are beyond hope.

--
<<EDIT>> following

Perhaps you and I have different understandings of what it means to 'proselytize'??? I understood it to mean welcoming people to your faith community, and initiating them into your views.

A more extreme form would be to try to tear down a person's current faith, and present your own as the superior faith. I experienced this more extreme form. It seemed that there was a script giving convenient facts about how current versions of the Bible were revised from the KJV. (arguments that would only work on the KJV only crowd which has its followers here in the US).

Actually -- I had to smile, as the people they want to convert are already Muslim in mindset -- they just need to change Korans.


The Islamic concept of Dawah is found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawah
_________________
Do Friends speak to today's condition, or are we only a historical footnote?

[Sylvanus]

[Shay]

[Sylvanus]

[Sylvanus]

[michaeldavidjay]

I'm sorry -- sarcasm is not always clear.

The script I heard was designed for people who were part of the KJV only movement. It used their arguments, and expanded on them. I was trying to joke that their reverence for a single translation (above Greek and Hebrew manuscripts, and certainly above critical editions) is similar to the Muslim view of the Koran. Somehow, I think the joke was missed.

The strange view that the KJV is inspired, and is God's Word in a way that the manuscripts it was translated from are not just baffles me. The script I heard assumed I was part of this group -- and, they have been rather successful at converting White women (who's Christianity has no higher view of women than Islam).
_________________
Do Friends speak to today's condition, or are we only a historical footnote?

[Anthony]

[Jim Wilson]

Hi Anthony:

Islam proselytizes, it always has. It is an intensely proselytizing religion. The precedent for this goes all the way back to Mohammed himself. I can't think of any period, or any Islamic tradition, that does not engage in proselytizing.

That's not a criticism. Almost all religions engage in the activity of attempting to gain converts, persuading people that their interpretation of the ultimate is correct and that others are flawed (apologetics), and in general competing for a larger share of those spiritually interested. I don't think there's anything wrong with proselytizing per se; as long as coercion is absent I have no problem with it.

Thanks,

Jim
_________________
www.shapingwords.blogspot.com

[wheatpenny]

Muslims do proselytise. I was a Muslim for 8 years and I had several books on proselytising (Muslims call it "Da'wa'" ("Invitation")).
_________________
"Hurrah for Quakerism!" (Caroline Fox)