QuakerInfo.com Forum

[Kiahanie]

[jnsn]

Bradleyp- I think that it is reasonable to say that many people's idea of how religion works is that you have a creed that you believe, and which makes you distinct from other (mistaken) religions, you have certain sacred texts, and you have someone,usually specially educated, that interprets the creed and the texts for you.

The un-programmed worship of the Society of Friends is so fundamentally different on so many fronts that it seems not quite bona fide to others. For instance trying to answer questions from my sister-in-law

'Well what do Quakers believe"- well that is a little complicated- you would have to ask individual members as there is no creed or dogma etc,etc

"Well what does the priest do at the mass" -well there is no church, no mass and no priest etc,etc
"So ok, I get it, then what do you call him, minister, pastor, or what?' - Actually the position does not exist because the relationship does not exist, there is no laity etc etc
"Ok then what do you do at the meeting"-Well mostly you wait, and listen, etc etc.

"So do you have to sell your car?"- No, your thinking of the Amish.

Maybe there are a large enough census of Friends where you are for people to have some familiarity , but not so much here. After getting over the part where they mistake Friends for the Amish, most seem genuinely puzzled by the whole state of affairs. Mix that with the general queasiness people on the left of the political spectrum express for religion
and game over.
-John

[bradleyp]

Okay, how does one explain the fact that there are gatherings that are more church-like in the conventional sense?
_________________
Bradley P.
Somewhere along the pathway back, the pathway forward, wherever it leads, I wish for an interesting walk.

[Dan]

One might ask the question, Was Christ or the disciples paid?

Friends are not alone in an "unpaid" ministry. Even many churches with an "organized" program have unpaid ministers. All of the Amish, many of the Mennonites, all the German Baptists, all the Dunkard Brethren, many other Brethren, all the Hutterites, and many Baptist groups function fully well without a paid or "educated" "clergy".

What better thing have we to study than the Bible, God's Holy Word? What better teacher is there, that the Holy Spirit? One need not have a cemetery education, (excuse me, I mean a seminary education) for a "program" to go on, people to be ministered to and blessed. In fact, in most of the so called churches I've been in with a hireling ministry it is exactly as if they've had a "cemetery" education for they are buildings with a hireling preacher and they're dead! Dead to the working of the Holy Spirit, dead to the Gospel, and folks are dead in their tresspasses and sins.

One need not defend either programmed or unprogrammed ministry. They will speak for themselves either good or evil, depending on Whom we lean on for guidance. Invite the questioner to attend thy meeting if they meeting has anything to offer.

Thy Friend,
Dan

[michaeldavidjay]

@Dan -- careful about the Cemetery education -- a 90 hour professional program is hopefully not for nothing... and, if a person wants to become a prison / hospital / military chaplain, it is required. Some of the courses are actually useful. -- also -- I thought the Word of God is Jesus .

I would ask the question about Seminary, whether its purpose is to create an elite class, or to give people with the time and interest the skills to better understand the text, faith, and humanity. I see education as useful, a caste system, not so much.

---
Full disclosure -- I am currently a seminarian. and, I think the cemetery joke is funny, but...
_________________
Do Friends speak to today's condition, or are we only a historical footnote?

[jnsn]

Friend bradleyp- Could you expand on what you mean? I'm sure the individual meetings come to reflect the people inside them to some extent.

Friend Kiahanie- Hey I'm finally getting the spelling of your avatar right without looking! Anyway, I feel that it is fair to say that communists (and other authoritarian formulations) have looked askance at any other structure that dilutes the power of the state. I think communist thinkers have been pretty frank about this, though I do not have cites handy. Also, I find it helpful to not only look at the idealized, clean, paper version of a philosophy, but what it looks like as a human system. So through that lens it is seems clear to me that the communist system as it is expressed through worldly governments endeavors to do just that, replace God with the State.

[Kiahanie]

[jnsn]

Friend Kiahanie- FYI Possibly you have heard in the news these past days that China is engaging in a pogrom against Catholic Clergy. they are being arrested and held with no charges.

[Shay]

I am still kinda curious what questions folks get asked that a factual explanation isn't appropriate?

I guess if people don't believe you, that's one thing, but is there something about ministerless worship that makes someone unable to say what they do and not be bothered if other people don't accept it?

[simplicity]

As far as I know all UK Quaker Meetings for Worship are unprogrammed with no pastor. We meet together in silence waiting quietly to hear that 'small voice' within each one of us. Like all things we do it requires practise and regular attendance to recognise what is being imparted to us. A gathered Meeting is spiritually moving and it is amazing how often those gathered are haviing similar feelings.

Vocal ministry is not often a voluntry choice, in my own case it is often a struggle between me and that 'small voice' within, sometimes I win but know at a later date I will find myself on my feet 'quaking within' and wondering what to say, the words come, I sit down and often do not know the exact words I have spoken, but do know the theme.

Thats the best explanation I can give.