QuakerInfo.com Forum

[woundwort]

[CelticNorth]

Facts are indeed, mischeivious, Friend woundwort. But put your shoes in those of a Palestinian Arab Muslim in 1900, peacefully tending your olive grove in the Jeezreel Valley. Therodore Herzel has puplished his call for world Zionism through his book, "The Jewsih State", and the World Jewsih Congress has already been formed. By looking at the demographics puplished by the Jewish Encyclopedia of 1901-1906, one would read that the world Jewish population was estimated at 11,207,000, and that in Palesine, only .6 of the population there was Jewish, and estimated 78,000 out the the world total 11,207,000, in a land already settled for centuries by a Arab population close to 750,00-800,00. No one can disagree that there has always been a Jewsih population in Palestine since the destruction of the Second Temple, but data also shows that even by 1920, there were eqaully as many Christians in Palestine as Jews, with both still a large minority in Palestine. In 1948, during the United Nations debate over the partition of Palestine, the Jewish population was still a solid minority of only 38% of the total population. The pogroms of 18th and 19th century Russia were certainly wrong, and the devastaion of the Jews during the Holocaust in Europe was one of worlds greatest atrocities. But I think the Jewish population in Palestine from 1900-1948 hardly meets the criteria of a oppossed people being denied land rights, when under the British Mandate from 1918 until 1948, it was European Jews who were provided near exclusive immigration rights. Palestine was used by the reining world powers at the close of WWII to assage the world Jewish population over the atrocities of the Holocaust, and an impoverished, defenseless Arab Palestine was used as the solution for the transferance of Jewish refugees after the war. Here we are today, still enrtangled in the outcome of that transfer of those populations, with no end in sight. The American tax bill has run well over 100 Billion since 1948 in direct aid to Isreal, not including preferential trade and military consessions needed to sustain it When one looks at the $100 Billion in forgien aid to Israel and see that same humanitarin "generosity" not being delivered in rational or similar proportions to other displaced populations, many in more need of aid than Israel, it wants to make me pull the Israeli ATM card issued to it by Congress and set standards for aid based upon some univerally agreed standards of humanitarian need. That is not being anit-Semtic; it is called being fair. We have benefited a near starving population from the close of WWII to a nation state which has attained a level of prosperity to that of other European nations. We denied that standard even to the American Indian.

[woundwort]

[CelticNorth]

I am not sure what constitutes "anti-Semitism" these days, but it does seem that criticizing Israel over the difficult issues like Jerusalem and West Bank " Jewish settlements" is like launching an attack on the Sacred Cow of India. One of the United States leading Rabbinical scholars has even accused the American Forgien Service Committee as being anti-Semitc for its reporting of the conflict, as they very often emphathize with the Palestinina Arabs under the occupation. I am very aligned and sympathetic, myself, with the AFSC positions on the Palestine. Me, and nearly every Amercian, has never been "occupied", so I find the entire system of building a society and political institutions on top of a pre-existing one abhorant. As I have stated, being the "occupiers" on top of a Native American Indian population here gives me pause to reconsider many things I take for granted as being "Amercian". But there are success stories that emerge from these types of ethnic and race conflicts. Japan and the United States have reconciled marvelously since WWII, South Africa has turned the corner, and we see peace there, and the human rights of Aboriginals in Australia and New Zealand are finding a welcoming place in those countires. I cannot, of course, believe that any one people is chosen over another, for birthright, land, title or privilage. I prefer the perception of all humanity being like one big tossed salad, one whose varied content is good anywhere. One of the better works written on the history and dynamics of the Palestine conflict was done by American historian Benny Morris, an Amercian Jew by birth who emigrated to Israel. He was, I remember, severly crtiizised by the Israeli press for his no holds barred analysis of Zionist and Israeli excesses, but whose work may still be the most balanced. Do you know, Friend woundwort, of any good books published by Arab authors on the topic which are availible in English ? I feel rather ignorant in not having read anything purely from the Arab perspective.

[kevin roberts]

[CelticNorth]

Or, in the words of Rabbi Jacob Neusner, whom I previously mentioned, the positions taken by the American Friends Service Committee are "the most militant and agressive of Christian anti-Israel groups". I don't think that Rabbi Jacob Nuesner even knows that in some Christian circles, Quakers are not considered Christian. I find his comments very "anti-Quaker", and find as proof his "anti-AFSC" statements and positions classical soi dissant. Its slippery language here, but it is raining where I live.

[james]

[james]

Have you actually read Benny Morris, McGuffey? I agree with you his work is quite balanced, truthful, and sympathetic to the Palestinian people. But he is also very sympathetic to Israel, and miles away from your own views.
_________________
James Riemermann
www.nontheistfriends.org
www.liberalquakers.org

[CelticNorth]

Friend James, yes, I did read Benny Morris, and actually referred him to many here; his was a great book; and yes, as an American Jew "returning" to Israel, he was supportive and believed in the Jewish State. He was, however, as I said, heavily criticized in some Israeli circles for his pulling the sheets off many long held views of Israelis as complete innocents in the tit for tat retribution cycle of violence against the Palestinians. The history of the Stern Gang and the Ergun are often lost on each new generation who looks back in time to atrocities commited in the name of Israel. Need a model for todays modern Middle Eastern terriorist; one can look there, as well as anywhere. I believe that Ariel Sharon, for example, commited crimes against humanity, and should have been tried at the Hague, but U. S. influence on the Security Council at the United Nations is one of dismal impotence in effecting the same standard of justice on its allies as it wishes to impose on its enemies. And that's the rub in taking sides in these conflicts; for those who want peace, criticism must be leveled in eqaul proportion to those who obstruct it- on both sides. I think the orginal sense of this thread was that Israel gets coddled by the western press, and is something with which I agree. We live in an age in the west that seems to be anti-Islamic and anti-Arab in many ways and means by which anti-Semitism took root, and which does nothing to advance the cause of peace.

[CelticNorth]

Just a little additional footnote on Benny Morris: his first contoversial book, the one I read, was "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem 1924-1948". I do stand corrected, however; it was his father who "returned", but from Britian. Benny did graduate work at Cambridge. What Morris opened the door to was a close examination of the 1948 War, with dissenting viewpoints published in response, like "The Palestinian Catastrophe: The 1948 Expulsion of a People from their Homeland", by Michael Palumbo, and "Isareli Apartheid: A Beginners Guide", by Ben White. I sense that even in academia, there has been a bias towards conclusions about the Palestianian refugee issue which reveal more about a authors religious views than on unbiased scholarship, and much like the press, often lean towards "political correctness" so as to not offend Israel. If the sins of the father do become those of the son, then we can see how 1948 hangs as a albatros on the neck of Israeli history.