QuakerInfo.com Forum

[punkrainbow]

Did early Quakers ever develop a clear theological stance towards Mary, the mother of Jesus? What positions do Friends on this forum take towards Mary in their personal/spiritual lives?
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I saw the infinite love of God. I saw also that there was an ocean of darkness and death; but an infinite ocean of light and love, which flowed over the ocean of darkness.

[Dan]

There is no doubt that Mary was specially chosen of God as the chosen seed of David's line from whom our kinman redeamer, the Lord Jesus Christ was to descend. As the mother of Christ, she truly was as she herself said, blessed among all women. Yet, no where did Mary nor the Lord ever state that Mary was to be worshipped nor prayed to.

Thy Friend,
Dan

[Shay]

[Pulpculture]

[kevin roberts]

Actually (I am shooting from the hip) the source of the veneration of Mary in the Roman church was tradition, and not scriptural. As I recall, an ancient worthy monk or abbot or saint or such had a vision, and in it Jesus Christ told him "To come to salvation through me is difficult, but to come to salvation through my mother is easy." I paraphrase.

Because the Roman Catholics place great emphasis on tradition, which includes revelations made to individuals, this doctrine is accepted as true.

Many Quakers have a similar belief in the truth of revelations like this.

[michaeldavidjay]

@Kevin -- this is something I've always wondered about the categorical dismissal of tradition, is that not a denial of God's continued work in the world?

Most of my reading on Mary was related to Nestorius... clearly veneration predated that debate. There is a tradition of correspondence between Mary and Ignatius... but this is considered "spurious".

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0114.htm
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Do Friends speak to today's condition, or are we only a historical footnote?

[Kiahanie]

Not Kevin, but I'll respond anyway.

There are several flavors of tradition. One flavor is the kind that arises from a story or parable or statement being repeated often enough that it becomes "traditional" out of the habit of repetition.

Another flavor is the insight that arises from a process of collective worshipful discernment, the seasoned insight becoming a part of that discerning community's tradition, a part of its "canon."

(There are more flavors, likely rivaling Baskin-Robbins, but I'll just use these two as examples to make my point.)

While I am sure Divine insights are revealed to individuals, I am doubtful that all individual insights are Divine. Collective discernment helps sort the wheat from the chaff. I have no idea what process of discussion and discernment led to the adoption of a belief so clearly at odds with scripture and Jesus' own (purported) teachings, and so I am uneasy accepting it as a Divine Insertion into the Christian creed.
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"There is a field out beyond right and wrong. I'll meet you there." --Jellaludin Rumi

[michaeldavidjay]

I grew up with people who wished to throw out tradition, simply because it was tradition... Its not always effective to not do something because it had been done that way before.


Church tradition is a tricky topic though... people forget therewas more than one of them.
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Do Friends speak to today's condition, or are we only a historical footnote?

[Kiahanie]

I had a similar upbringing, on the other side of the looking glass: I grew up with people who wished keep to tradition, simply because it was tradition (as long as it was their tradition). It's not always effective to do something because it has been done that way before.

Both can be stifling to Spirit rising.
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"There is a field out beyond right and wrong. I'll meet you there." --Jellaludin Rumi

[michaeldavidjay]

I am having trouble finding any old Quaker writings on Mary... she is mentioned in passing, usually in quoted material.


I think I saw something like what Dan wrote in a 19th century discipline... back in my student days... will write more if I find t, if not, Dan, source please!
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Do Friends speak to today's condition, or are we only a historical footnote?

[kevin roberts]

Quakers are weird about tradition, especially where I hang out. Trust me.

The old idea was that tradition was suspect if it meant just incorporating somebody else's revelations into your own belief system without a personal revelation of your own. The don't-recite-creeds argument. I think this is still a good idea, personally.

On the other hand, one of the first things that Quakers usually did in the old days was become convinced of the truth of the revelation by some specific experience, and then to incorporate all sorts of accessories--plain speech, plain dress, specific doctrine, etc. Fox et al. would tell people once that happened that their assignment was now to come to possess what they professed, which meant the continuing and simultaneous process of justification and sanctification.

It was a process in which trusting in the revelations of others (including Scripture) was essential. I think this is still a good idea, too.

[michaeldavidjay]

@Kevin, 13th century, Dominic the founder of the Dominican order is said to have introduced the practice of praying the Rosary... I believe that this is what you were talking about.

The place of Mary in Christian tradition is difficult for me -- I read, but I do not understand. I never know if I am making too much, or too little of the writers point. Often I'm not quite certain what point he wishes to make.

[Reading the Church fathers gives me an appreciation for Quakers as 'primitive Christianity revived' I can see many of them giving vocal ministry in meetings before the splits and enforced conformity.... and debating the notions of the day in tracts. While I think its unfortunate that Fox believed the church to be apostate -- leading some of us to narrowness and intolerance, I think it is even more unfortunate that in his time and place, he may have been right.]
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Do Friends speak to today's condition, or are we only a historical footnote?

[kevin roberts]

Well, MDJ, as usual the world is more complicated than I thought.

Mariology is based on a long history of appearances, and various Scriptural interpretations. The example I cited was from an official history written in the margin of a Roman Catholic catalog selling various items associated with the veneration of the Virgin of Guadalupe. The fellow I was talking about may or may not have been the first. The veneration became official at one of the Ephesus councils.

This sort of stuff is difficult for me to figure out as well.

Fox certainly believed the post-Christ church to have become apostate, and in my opinion his point is hard to contest when you're talking about the Church as the powerful religious/political institution it became after Constantine. They share that dubious honor with their Protestant opposite numbers.

I see the same apostate church today in the attitudes of people who use Christianity to justify beliefs and practices that are clearly inconsistent (to me) with the teachings of Christ.

[michaeldavidjay]

Yeah -- the problem is -- we Friends share much of the same hypocrisy. We are all people -- one of our human problems is that we want to prove God agrees with us, instead of learning to agree with God. This problem applies to us individuals as well as to governments.

The marriage of church and state is problematic, to say the least. Quakers did much to help the situation -- sometimes I wonder if our numbers decreased because things got better... still, I see a difference between Fox's apostate church, both Catholic and Protestant... and Barclay's preservation of the Church through all times.

http://michaeldavidjay.wordpress.com/2009/10/15/thoughts-for-the-society-of-friends/

For the sake of my own soul -- I hope God is more merciful than our dear George.
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Do Friends speak to today's condition, or are we only a historical footnote?

[michaeldavidjay]

@Kevin -- the Ephesus council (I guess you mean 431 AD) is quite confusing to me. It seems to be mostly about Nestorius... he is condemned for his odd way of describing Christ, and his refusal to recognize that Mary, who bore Jesus bore God. Question: Are the Mary anathema's about the veneration of Mary, or about how people saw the deity of Christ?

The 'bad' thing about hard and fast decisions is once something is set in stone -- people start looking for loopholes. we like to be RIGHT.

*EDIT* Loopholes and other ways to twist the decision to match our will... where there are laws, there will be lawyers.
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Do Friends speak to today's condition, or are we only a historical footnote?