QuakerInfo.com Forum

[Shay]

[Chip]

I'm confused!
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Take what is given
Give what is taken

[Chip]

I'm familiar with red herring but bluefish is a new species to me. Do you mean someone is trolling? Not me

Pacifism is a thing I'm reaching for understanding on. I know if a five year old grandkid came at me with a tire iron, I'd take it away from him. If a forty year old man came at me with the same tire iron and there was a gun within my reach, I wouldn't kill him. So somewhere in between those two extremes is my place to settle. So pacifism is a thing I've been mulling over an awful lot.
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Take what is given
Give what is taken

[kevin roberts]

Chip, there is nothing in pacifism that says you have to stand idly by and just be spectator to injustice. You are free to act against the injustice, to restrain the agent of the injustice, or to assist the object of the injustice to escape.

There is no requirement to be "passive."

A pacifist Christian in the Quaker tradition is not permitted in good conscience to use the tools or techniques of evil in the hopes that their use might prevent other evil. There are many people working through these leadings who are at different stages in the revelation.

I would take the tire iron away from the child. I would attempt to take the tire iron away from the adult. I wouldn't hit either one with the tire iron, nor would I shoot the adult given the chance.

God says No, and I think it's more important to be obedient than to be alive. You just keep working on it. You're doing fine.

Added:
Ain't that a beautiful fish? I remember trying to catch dolphins once with a bent nail on a rope, off the back of a mudboat. We were using the shrimp intended for lunch for bait until the cook came and told us to quit feeding the fish with it.

[Chip]

Thanks for your response Kevin. I see a difference between using force and causing physical harm. For instance taking the tire iron from the man but without bashing his head in to do it.

One of my great heroes is peace Pilgrim. I like her little saying:

"This is the way of peace:
Overcome evil with good,
and falsehood with truth,
and hatred with love."
_________________
Take what is given
Give what is taken

[kevin roberts]

Many people have difficulty with the idea, but a Quaker restraining someone who is attempting to cause harm is not un-Quakerly, and was once approved of by old Fox himself in his journal. Many people think pacificsm is just standing to the side wringing your hands.

With respect to a pacificist adopting the tools of non-pacifists in order to be a more effective political leader, I personally reject the idea. I would continue to act in accordance with my beliefs even as a political leader of non-pacifists. That is one reason why I reject politics in general and choose to apply and disseminate my religion as a more effective way to change the world for the better. I am a very poor compromiser.

You will never see a peaceful world, or a lasting peace, built on secular principles. You will see intervals of Pax Romana, or Pax Brittania, or even Pax Americana, locally. But force convinces nobody to do more than wait for a better opportunity, and eventually every peaceful secular state falls into savagery again everywhere. You will also never see a peaceful world based on a theocracy that accepts violence as a solution to political or social problems.

Pennsylvania had lots of social and political problems that acompanied its experimental role as a theocratic state built on Quaker principles. But it persisted a long time and made political and social waves that profoundly influenced history.

I'd have no problems trying it again, because I believe that with God behind it, many of the criticisms beginning with "It's just not practical, because . . ." cease to have validity.

But mostly I just talk too much, you know.

[Chip]

No Kevin, you don't talk too much. Well, not on here anyway....your wife may say different

I know I've said it before but there are spiritual laws just as sure as there are physical laws like gravity. And when we break spiritual laws we reap the consequences. Not as though God looks down from some lounge chair in the sky and decides to punish us for being a law breaker but as the natural and immutable consequence of the law. Just like feeling a little pain when we drop an anvil on our toe. We learn about anvil dropping much quicker than we learn about solving problems with violence, getting gain by investing in the stock of companies that break spiritual laws and stuff like that. I said 'we" but I'd be fairer to just say "me".

So no, running an empire based on violent dominance of others isn't going to work at all. It may seem to work for a while but the broken laws will have their effect every time. And those who think such "high minded notions" as honesty, respect, pacifism and so on are all well and good in their place but can't be applied to life in the "real world" don't understand that the spiritual world is the real world. I can't see the wind either but I can sure tell when it's blowing.

I see the difference between paciVism and paciFism. I think that's what you're saying.

Proving that I too can talk too much
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Take what is given
Give what is taken