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orPowers
Joined: 25 Aug 2006
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Location: Medford, OR
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 Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:31 am Post subject: "Convergence" |
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I was reading an article on one of the many "Quaker" sites and ran across the idea of or term, "convergence," which would seem to be a movement or attitude in the direction of healing rifts in the Quaker "world." This is an idea that very much appeals to me, and I am wondering if any of you can point me to some background and/or experience in the idea. What kinds of opinions are out there on possibilities and/or desirability of such a thing?
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Laurence17
Joined: 25 Feb 2006
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Location: U.K.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:23 pm Post subject: mutual irradiation |
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'Mutual irradiation'is a term I came across for this kind of personal meeting in depth. Rather wonderful, it seems to me.
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Abwoon : divine progenitor, breathing mindfulness through poor in spirit and the resonating realm of ruach |
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Shay
Joined: 01 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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Well, the problem is that the liberal side sees their side as being more tolerant, and therefore in line with God, and the conservative side sees their side as more Biblical, and therefore more in line with God.
The problem is that they're often on totally different sides of the same issue, but how do you resolve that? |
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wsamuel
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:39 am Post subject: |
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This concept, or perhaps more correctly this way of describing the concept, developed pretty recently. Robin Mohr is generally given credit for developing this way of putting it. See Robinopedia: Convergent Friends. This has now been discussed in several Quaker blogs and in an article in Quaker Life.
At least in this manifestation, there isn't a long background.
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orPowers
Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 637
Location: Medford, OR
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:07 am Post subject: |
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Thank you, That's a good start. The "What canst thou say" quote is really what it is all about, I think; how the Spirit leads each of us. It seems to me that the more conservative end of the spectrum needs to put more reliance on that leading, with the idea that non Christian traditions DO have much to offer, and the more liberal end needs to get over a certain resentment of the "exclusiveness" of traditional Christian religion to recognize that the teaching of Jesus is at least as valid for spirituality as any other in their spectrum of sources. Just some musings of an admittedly ignorant spectator. I'd like to see more ideas, and could sure stand correcting if I'm looking at this wrong.
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Laurence17
Joined: 25 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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when on totally different 'sides' of an issue --that's where hours and hours of silent waiting Worship together, may come in ...
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Laurence17
Joined: 25 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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At my meeting we have sundry types of christians, muslims, Jews, buddhists , humanists and atheists all Worshipping in silence, all Waiting in the presence...
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orPowers
Joined: 25 Aug 2006
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Location: Medford, OR
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Laurence17 wrote: |
| At my meeting we have sundry types of christians, muslims, Jews, buddhists , humanists and atheists all Worshipping in silence, all Waiting in the presence... |
And all able to see the value of the contribution of each, I would venture to say, without labelling it "Christian" or "Buddhist" or whatever. I wonder how much there really IS of the hostility toward carrying a Bible to Meeting I have heard of?
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Laurence17
Joined: 25 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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Indeed! the 'contributions' to ministry are not labelled --and could not be--the form they seem to take, here.
I wasnt sure about the 'carrying the bible' point. On the whole folk would read one of a number of different versions of the Bible, on the table, along with flowers, leaves, and cpies of the Book of discipline.
(Hope I haven't miised your point)
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Shay
Joined: 01 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:14 am Post subject: |
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| orPowers wrote: |
| and the more liberal end needs to get over a certain resentment of the "exclusiveness" of traditional Christian religion to recognize that the teaching of Jesus is at least as valid for spirituality as any other in their spectrum of sources. |
Well, as a person decidedly on one side of that argument... which comes first, the chicken or the egg?
The folks who proclaim Jesus as a Savior generally (not always) say that's the only way, or the only true way, or the one real way, or however you'd like to wrap it up in "love thy neighbor," when the message implied (and not so subtly as the word suggests) is "Love thy Christian neighbor with no reserve or judgement... everyone else needs saving."
That's the big problem as I see it. I don't need saving. Either God loves us all or doesn't. (Bias ahead) I'd rather live in the possibility that God loves everyone and wants to love them forever; then the possibility that the Divine is somehow holding people to something they never agreed with dependent on where they were born and what their parents told them was real.
Which actually brings me to my next point rather obviously...
| Quote: |
| ...The "What canst thou say" quote is really what it is all about, I think; how the Spirit leads each of us. It seems to me that the more conservative end of the spectrum needs to put more reliance on that leading, |
Hey, lookit me, tryin' to be all fair here... I may need someone else to back me up on the other side since I left the Christian viewpoint twelve years ago or so...
Well, for a people raised and fed on "Biblical*" morals, stories, and laws, folks coming up with their own versions of "God says this because I said so!"? More than a little scary. It's downright... weird. On the not-so-conservative side, take David Koresh, our own LiciaKuenning or even Fred Phelps to see what a fiercely individually informed view of religion can make a person turn to without considering other people's input. I'm not trying to demean any of those people but to be honest... people who claim a direct line to God, especially without any formal religious training? Kinda creepy to most folks.
The major problem as I see it is that Friends have set themselves up without an established or totally-so-agreed-on-forever dogma but without the resources to encompass the distinct belief structures of various beliefs that may fall under that net, whether they span the gamut of Christian beliefs or go outside the original unfocused parameters. There's nothing but the very barest of social structures governing the relationship in the Society between the way of knowledge, the way of study, and the way of revelation**. Meanwhile they're often ignoring or disregarding the fact that Friends are usually against the mainstream but ahead of the tide for possibly that same reason. Let's face it, your average citizen wasn't for women's rights or against slavery. It took passionate leaders.
That is, there isn't any good social and religious exclusion/inclusion structures, because none have been established in the liberal tradition, (Which is still a Friendly tradition for all, whether they agree or not... last I checked we're not kicking people out) the gap between ""I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me," and "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me," and my personal prayers of talking to the Divine like an old gal pal (I just feel better not thinking thou and thee all the time***), and someones feeling that the Lord Our God is Something To Never Be Taken With Even The Slightest Humor EVER... isn't too tough to cross.
If we were to take God out of it, we would easily find common ground as parents, accountants, retail workers, political activists, etc... but no other organization in the name of religion offers us the remotest chance to not only disagree, but to get along and gives us the slightest tools work in our disagreement. Friends are getting there. See it as backsliding (from both sides) but there has to be some kind of common ground that those who believe in a Savior and those who believe the Divine is all they need have to find some middle ground at some point.
*In quotes simply because I can't find one simple definable Bible-of-all-bibles out there, so there's quite a few interpretations of what should be a holy book for all... this is my BIG admitted bias speaking out, your mileage may vary and all that.
**Knowledge being personal experience-based evangelism, study being world-based commonly-held beliefs, and revelation being biblical-based evangelism- I am really, really trying to be fair but probably am not doing each side justice. I hope you get the idea I'm putting across here- we each as a semi-cohesive group have our strengths and weaknesses.
***This is not an important or informative footnote. No, seriously I'm trying to be serious, and I don't want to hear any giggles. No! No giggling Wow.. giggling is a silly word... |
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orPowers
Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 637
Location: Medford, OR
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| Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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Shay said:
"Well, as a person decidedly on one side of that argument... which comes first, the chicken or the egg?
The folks who proclaim Jesus as a Savior generally (not always) say that's the only way, or the only true way, or the one real way, or however you'd like to wrap it up in "love thy neighbor," when the message implied (and not so subtly as the word suggests) is "Love thy Christian neighbor with no reserve or judgement... everyone else needs saving."
This is exactly the kind of dialogue that is needed, in my opinion. The point here, and that I was trying to make before is that that "conservative" end seems to think in terms of a "religion" or set of forms and beliefs as opposed to a way of life and relation to God. This is where an understanding of "the light" that includes the possibility of coming to a relationship with God without actually knowing the name of Jesus (as Barclay mentioned) is an area for review by the conservatives. The consequences of requiring knowledge of the name by isolated peoples ought to have SOME impact. The idea of Jesus as embodying "the Way" ought to be inclusive rather than exclusive. This is the end where the conservatives will need to "give a little."
I think that both ends of the spectrum need to come to a little better understanding of what "the New Covenant" is all about, and the importance of the leading of the Spirit. If the liberal end were perhaps a little more aware of the importance of that idea in the Quaker tradition (as I think it should be in all Christian traditions) they might be a little more tolerant of "Christ centered" attitudes, in that the dogmatic ideas should be at least a little tempered.
I am definitely more oriented to the liberal end, and could probably stand a little more information from the conservative side. That's what dialogue is all about.
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orPowers
Joined: 25 Aug 2006
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Location: Medford, OR
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| Posted: Thu Nov 9, 2006 11:27 am Post subject: |
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Well, so far I haven't seen any dialogue from the more conservative "Christian" end of the scale, and that my be due to smaller participation on the board, or possibly a reluctance to discuss concepts that seem to many of us to be exclusionary. In a Questions Forum thread Shay posted:
| Shay wrote: |
Alright. But a charismatic* church with a pastor preaching the Triinty and a given set of beliefs is not, as I understand it, a meetinghouse, which is the main idea of the SOF (as I understand it). I grew up in a Lutheran church, and I don't see the difference in effect, if not cause. I don't have a problem with an 'unorthodox' church calling itself Friends Church, I;m just raising a question as to whether they consider themselves true Friends at the implied cost of every Friend who disagrees with their worldview.
*And I as I get it. that's one person, usually some pastoral guy, in charge os a congregation's spiritual welfare." |
Good observations. How important are things like "Trinity Doctrine" or "inerrancy?" How much control of the tendency for a "Pastor" to run the Meeting is there, and by the same token, how much active participation in the conduct of "church business" IS there?
The other side of the coin is that there is some feeling that maintaining the form of open meeting is a requirement to be a "true" Friend.
On a more upbeat note on the subject, notice where the support for construction of Kaimosi Friends University in Kenya is coming from...
In His Love,
orPowers
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Romans 8:38-39
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Laurence17
Joined: 25 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:27 am Post subject: |
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On a more upbeat note on the subject, notice where the support for construction of Kaimosi Friends University in Kenya is coming from...
Sorry ==what is this referringf toi ? What is the anwer ? Thanks.
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Abwoon : divine progenitor, breathing mindfulness through poor in spirit and the resonating realm of ruach |
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orPowers
Joined: 25 Aug 2006
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Location: Medford, OR
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Laurence17 wrote: |
On a more upbeat note on the subject, notice where the support for construction of Kaimosi Friends University in Kenya is coming from...
Sorry ==what is this referringf toi ? What is the anwer ? Thanks. |
Oh, sorry. My point is that support for the University seems to be coming from virtually every Yearly Meeting in the US and Britain at least. I find that a very hopeful indication of common ground.
In His Love
orPowers
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Romans 8:38-39
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Laurence17
Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 385
Location: U.K.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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My thanks. I had not heard of it in the UK.
It do sound encouraging.
I wonder if there is a website for it ?
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