QuakerInfo.com Forum

[Dan]

[Dan]

Friend Anthony,

Words, Words, Words, I believe that as far as "words" is concerned, this is the very basis of the "trinity" and it no doubt does and should matter. The quesion regarding the "trinity" is simply this: John 1:1 says that "In the beginning was the *word* and the *Word* was with God and the *Word* was God." John 1 also goes on to say, "And the *Word* was made flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." So *words* do matter, at least what we believe about that particular *Word*. Is Jesus Christ God or not?

Thy Friend,
Dan

[Anthony]

[michaeldavidjay]

Anthony, I think, in your view, you are consistent with Fox and Barclay. (One of the old complaints about Quakers such as them is they gladly spoke of the three in English, but complained about translating that into Latin).

The difficult task is to figure out the line between 'not judging', and keeping order in our meetings for worship / good relations with the wider community. (I'm glad I am not an elder).
_________________
Do Friends speak to today's condition, or are we only a historical footnote?

[CelticNorth]

I find this tread on the Holy Trinity very interesting and informative. But in John 1:1 we find the Divinity of Jesus of Nazareth being decribed as pre-existant; we find that in the story of the Virgin Birth, that this is declared as its source; and we find the act of Ritual Cleansing, the water Baptism by John the Baptist, another. Is John the only biblical source for the concept of pre-existance ?

[Anthony]

[CelticNorth]

In John 1:1-18, the New Testament introduces us to the pre-existence of Christ, which enables the Holy Trinity concept. ( The side thought is why John had to immerse, or Baptize, Jesus of Nazareth, if he was already a God ? ) But back to the Holy Triinity itself. I believe John the Baptist was carrying on a ancient tradtion that went back as far as Mycene, and the "Trisheros", the "thrice or triple hero", which became "Hermes Trismegistus" by the time of the syncretic combination of Greek and Egyptian thought during the Hellenistic era. You will find in a Wikipedia article, "....many Christian writers, including Lactantius, Augustine, Geiordano Bruno, Marsilio Finicno, etc., considered Hermes Trismegistus to be a wise Pagan prophet who forsaw the coming of Christianity". ( We all know Augustine. ) Now here is where I fall into line as a Univeraslist Quaker Liberal- theologically. These early Christian writers "belived in a "Prisca Theologia", the doctrine that a single, true theology exists, which threads through all religions , and which was given by "God", to man in antiquity, and passed through a series of prophets, which included Zoraster and Plato. In order to demonstate the the verity of "Prisca Theologia", Christians appropriated the Hermetic teachings for their own purposes". There were forty-two Hermetic texts, which read like to close a resemblence to Christian literature, that all one need is to change the names of the dieties, my Friend. Libereal and Universalist Quaker thought is more rooted and sustainable than Evangelical or Orthodox Friends give it credit for, me thinks. It looks to me like the Holy Trinity in Christianity, like a lot of other doctrines, did indeed have a history prior to writings of John 1:1-18.

[Anthony]

[CelticNorth]

I think the common understanding of the term "Christ" connotates the Messiah, the "annointed", which in the context of the New Testament, means the fullfillment of the prohecy of Isaiah. But back to "Trinitarianism": I was recently directed to Mathew 28:10 as the major New Testament statement regaring the biblical language of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I understand your point about using "history" as a lens into viewing and tracing various orign concepts of the theology in both the Old and New Testaments, but the process of "syncretism" is perhaps a better term to use, me thinks. With the belief of a monothesitic sky god present as early as the age of Myceane, the process of sycretic merging of myth, ritual, culture and language has a long tradition.

[Anthony]

[michaeldavidjay]

@Anthony -- that is an interesting question! Personally, I find a spiritual connection with those who came before -- though, I also find that the language of academics clouds things.

For me, the Spiritual understanding of the Trinity, historically, would be found in books such as Incarnation of the Word by Athanatius of Alexandria, or Basil's work on the Holy Spirit.

Trinity outside of this historical context... i.e. purely as an orthodoxy test is much less meaningful to me. I don't like things that are only important because we are supposed to know them.
_________________
Do Friends speak to today's condition, or are we only a historical footnote?

[Anthony]

[Dragonfly]