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punkrainbow
Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 301
Location: Leeds
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 Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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I heard a wonderfully heretical idea a few years ago that Mary, as well as Jesus was an incarnation of God (as Sophia, Holy Wisdom) who gave birth to the Word (the Logos). The idea has stuck with me.
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I saw the infinite love of God. I saw also that there was an ocean of darkness and death; but an infinite ocean of light and love, which flowed over the ocean of darkness. |
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rocketsfan05
Joined: 14 Jul 2010
Posts: 20
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| [quote="punkrainbow"]I heard a wonderfully heretical idea a few years ago that Mary, as well as Jesus was an incarnation of God (as Sophia, Holy Wisdom) who gave birth to the Word (the Logos). The idea has stuck with me.[/quote] A catholic guy I know once told me Catholics pray to Mary because some believe she is divine. I don't know if thats a standard belief but it seems quite blasphemous. |
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Anthony
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 1542
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| punkrainbow wrote: |
| I heard a wonderfully heretical idea a few years ago that Mary, as well as Jesus was an incarnation of God (as Sophia, Holy Wisdom) who gave birth to the Word (the Logos). The idea has stuck with me. |
I'm not sure about heretical but whatever others think she is loved and venerated by millions as the mother of Jesus and with whom they have experience on a personal level - all the rest seems simply mischief or academic... |
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michaeldavidjay
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 452
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:37 am Post subject: |
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I've not heard Wisdom of Solomon treated as a foretelling of Mary, but I have read the proto-gospel of Mary. I personally was not aware of treating Mary as Deity, but... I was aware of veneration beyond what a good protestant could stomach.
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Anthony
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 1542
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| michaeldavidjay wrote: |
| I've not heard Wisdom of Solomon treated as a foretelling of Mary, but I have read the proto-gospel of Mary. |
Who said it did - what have I missed? What is the proto-gospel of Mary - has it anything to do with her other than what someone decided to write in her name?
| michaeldavidjay wrote: |
| I personally was not aware of treating Mary as Deity, but... I was aware of veneration beyond what a good protestant could stomach. |
There are always those who go too far, including quakers. Could you provide details about ' beyond what a good protestant could stomach?' |
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michaeldavidjay
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 452
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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"Wisdom of Solomon" has been seen as messianic -- Sophia = Jesus. Sophia=Mary seems to be the same source.
The 'gospel of Mary'.... (Actually the proto-gospel of James -- I looked it up since you asked) is a story of the birth of Mary
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm
Um... things that annoy protestants... Praying the Rosary comes to mind. Calling for Mary to "Pray for us" also comes to mind. American protestants have rather weak stomachs.
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CelticNorth
Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 755
Location: East of Eden
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Kersey Graves, I believe, put out a easily accessible book listing ancient religious beliefs and "Crucified Saviors"; I think he listed 16 instances predating the NT that entailed the "virgin birth" of crucified saviors. I have long held that Mary and Jesus are merely a continuation of these traditions, re-dated to enhance the divinity claims of those who supported Jesus of Nazareth as the fullfillment of the prophecy of a coming Messiah. Messianic cults were also prevalant in the ancient middle east as well, so a broad knowledge of these themes was already known through out the Roman world by the time of Constantine and Nicea. [/url] |
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Anthony
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 1542
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| McGuffey wrote: |
| Kersey Graves, I believe, put out a easily accessible book listing ancient religious beliefs and "Crucified Saviors"; I think he listed 16 instances predating the NT that entailed the "virgin birth" of crucified saviors. I have long held that Mary and Jesus are merely a continuation of these traditions, re-dated to enhance the divinity claims of those who supported Jesus of Nazareth as the fullfillment of the prophecy of a coming Messiah. Messianic cults were also prevalant in the ancient middle east as well, so a broad knowledge of these themes was already known through out the Roman world by the time of Constantine and Nicea. [/url] |
Mc, you are a fundamental historian and recorded history is not as reliable as some like to think it is. The millions of the faithful who venerate Mary have no awareness or knowledge of the claims that you are so fond of postulating or even the actual facts of tradition that debunkers are so fond of debunking - yet, the faithful still have their experience. Their experiences strengthen faith and belief which are the matrix of our life experience. We love or fear according to how we feel or interpret our inner or outer world. Mary is an inner relationship of love, motherhood, friend, mediator, advocator, interceder and mother of Jesus, a real experience. Anything otherwise that anyone may say about this is within the limits of Newtonian experience and of history. The faithul are experiencing what is the inner truth for them now; do we really understand the nature of reality that we can limit it to an outer, three dimensional world of symbolic history.
Last edited by Anthony on Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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CelticNorth
Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 755
Location: East of Eden
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:41 am Post subject: |
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| Very good point Anthony, but to much "religious truth" being "experienced now" was authored, penned and perpetuated by revisionest priesthoods that knew no separation between church and state, and whose changes over time bear the scandals and politics of religous doctrines imposed by military force- like the duress and conformity of faith practice mandated by Constantine, Cromwell- or Thutmoses. Historically, both Kersey and Thomas Paine entered the "Enlightenment" from Quaker backgrounds and experieinces, and yet both found in comparative religious studies explanation and liberation from the inconsistencies of scriptual dogma. Pre-Old and NewTestament recorded history is still being sifted, translated and interpeted, something which was not fully permitted prior to the Reformation. But there are Quaker perspectives, like those of Kersey and Paine, which have espoused reason and rational thought as valid methods for discerning truth, faith and knowledge independent of Jewsih and Christian scripture and dogma. I find in their writings a thoughtful, refreshing approach and analysis of religious history, which should be included in any Quaker discernment of spritual experience. If the larger Quaker community would spend more time reading them instead of attempting to disown them, many inner lights may burn brighter. |
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Anthony
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 1542
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| McGuffey wrote: |
| Very good point Anthony, but to much "religious truth" being "experienced now" was authored, penned and perpetuated by revisionest priesthoods that knew no separation between church and state, and whose changes over time bear the scandals and politics of religous doctrines imposed by military force- like the duress and conformity of faith practice mandated by Constantine, Cromwell- or Thutmoses. Historically, both Kersey and Thomas Paine entered the "Enlightenment" from Quaker backgrounds and experieinces, and yet both found in comparative religious studies explanation and liberation from the inconsistencies of scriptual dogma. Pre-Old and NewTestament recorded history is still being sifted, translated and interpeted, something which was not fully permitted prior to the Reformation. But there are Quaker perspectives, like those of Kersey and Paine, which have espoused reason and rational thought as valid methods for discerning truth, faith and knowledge independent of Jewsih and Christian scripture and dogma. I find in their writings a thoughtful, refreshing approach and analysis of religious history, which should be included in any Quaker discernment of spritual experience. If the larger Quaker community would spend more time reading them instead of attempting to disown them, many inner lights may burn brighter. |
What does this say about the inner, personal, experience of Mary the mother of Jesus whom people venerate? |
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CelticNorth
Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 755
Location: East of Eden
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Like visions of Our Lady of Lourdes or the Virgin Mary of Guadalupe, the imagery of Holy Mother is deeply rooted in the religious psche, maybe since time immemorial. Perhaps due to the cultural influences of the Norhern Celtic Tribes of Europe, I sense the presence of the Divine Mother as that of Earth Mother, whose cyclical symbollism during the Spring Equinox celebrates new life and regeneration for all of nature. I've never had a vision of the Virgin Mary, or of Jesus, but did have a vision of God in the clouds who resembled a cross of Michaelangelo's painting on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel of God, that of the Grandfather from the Shirley Temple movie "Heidi', and from the popular portrayal of Santa Claus. Forming a "pictured" essence, or vision, of a divine personage from scripture does not occur with me other than the imagery of God I just mentioned, which was formed by images from my childhood. Who do YOU see ? |
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Anthony
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 1542
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| McGuffey wrote: |
Like visions of Our Lady of Lourdes or the Virgin Mary of Guadalupe, the imagery of Holy Mother is deeply rooted in the religious psche, maybe since time immemorial.
Perhaps due to the cultural influences of the Norhern Celtic Tribes of Europe, I sense the presence of the Divine Mother as that of Earth Mother, whose cyclical symbollism during the Spring Equinox celebrates new life and regeneration for all of nature.
I've never had a vision of the Virgin Mary, or of Jesus, but did have a vision of God in the clouds who resembled a cross of Michaelangelo's painting on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel of God, that of the Grandfather from the Shirley Temple movie "Heidi', and from the popular portrayal of Santa Claus.
Forming a "pictured" essence, or vision, of a divine personage from scripture does not occur with me other than the imagery of God I just mentioned, which was formed by images from my childhood. Who do YOU see ? |
I think we may be coming back to a point I made earlier but one I feel is not always easy to grasp. It would be a mistake to think of Mary as a separate entity from the one having the experience of her. The experience and the object of experience are the same, being created from that of God in which they are both one.
Therefore, what is being experienced is the Universal Feminine, of which we are all a part, in a relationship with an individual in the form of which that individual can relate. We relate to imagery, symbols or mental constructs that are rooted in our belief systems arising from either our life experience or our trust in the experience of others which we then try to make our own.
There are a myriad of forms by which the Universal Feminine aspect of God has been experienced, and the Divine Mother or Earth Mother are a part of the same experience as Mary, but she is not known as a goddess. Catholics have experienced the Universal Feminine in the persona of Mary, the mother of Jesus and the Universal Mother, for a long, long time.
The faithful who venerate Mary and know and experience her as a friend do not need to know other than she is their experience, where they stand and in their need. That her essence or energy may have been known in other forms is unnecessary and purely academic.
I suggest that your vision may have been a way of reminding you of the Universal Fatherhood of God in images of which you could readily relate, Father Christmas, Grandfather, the majesty of the clouds or ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. It was a spontaneous experience of transcendence or of the Universal in ways that mean something to you, similar to Mary as motherhood who communicates with that within each of us. God uses what we already have within us to strengthen and nurture us.
Mc, you ask, " Who do YOU see?" I don't 'see' anything with my eyes that I venerate but I try and see with inner vision and realise that reality is within and not without. In other words, if I see a wonderful, panoramic view I try not to confine it to the physical but pass it over to the transcendent. I try to realise that it is showing me the majesty of reality that is not confined to the material, of which the view is simply a reminder of the substance of things hoped and evidence of things not seen, as I suggest was the meaning of your vision.
I apologise if this is a bit of a ramble.
Last edited by Anthony on Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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CelticNorth
Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 755
Location: East of Eden
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Nothing like a good ramble, Anthony; it is a spontaneous sincerity and purity of heart being spoken from within. |
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