QuakerInfo.com Forum

[CelticNorth]

That was a very good post, Kiahanie. My leadings are if we speak truth to justice and bear witness to the innocent, I would still lay fault on the tragedy known as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict on 19th century Zionism, the perverted political and religious facism that it fostered, and on the need it created to displace Palestinain Arabs to fullfill its plan of salvation for persecuted European Jewery. Quakers were once persecuted, burned at the stake, imprisoned, exiled, and still founded a faith and peace tradition which strove to cause no suffering or imposition on others. When one robs Peter to pay Paul, as the Catholics would say, one must still acknowledge that the robbery occured, and not quibble over the merits of Peter, or of Paul. The crime has been committed, the robbery seen, and perhaps it is only for us to leave our witness, and enable history to be the final judge.

[Anthony]

Hi

Do you guys just happen to carry all of these fact around in your heads or do you spend time researching them before you post?

[Kiahanie]

[CelticNorth]

I took a elective college course in International Studies- Middle Eastern Politics, and have followed the plight of the Palestinian Arabs since having a Arab room mate in college ( he was from Saudi Arabia, completing his M.A. in Literature on William Faulkner, of all things, and also introduced me to Mulsim Literature and the Holy Quran ). My own interest in that region took on new life when the American Hostages were seized in Tehran by the Revolutionary Guards, and it behooved me to figure out why so many countries the Arab world held the United States in disdain and contempt. My interest in the history of Zionism came from readings about the Allied occupation of the Ottoman Empire after the end of WWI, and what political forces influenced United Nations actions there.

[Pulpculture]

Israeli soldiers shot flotilla activists from choppers

The Association of Human Rights and Solidarity for Oppressed Peoples (MAZLUM-DER) stated during a press conference on Monday that Israeli commandos shot at activists on the Mavi Marmara from their helicopters, according to autopsy reports.
Yasin Dıvrak, a lawyer for MAZLUM-DER, said the autopsy reports prepared by the Council of Forensic Medicine (ATK) proved that Israeli soldiers, contrary to their claims of self-defense, aimed to kill and started to shoot even before descending onto the Mavi Marmara, which was carrying humanitarian aid to the under-siege Gaza on May 31.
During the Israeli raid, nine peace activists were killed and dozens more injured. Israel claims that its soldiers attacked passengers in self-defense because some of the passengers assaulted Israeli soldiers with sticks and knives after they descended onto the ship. The autopsy reports also showed that the corpses of the activists were washed before being sent to Turkey and some alcohol had been found in their bodies.
The press conference was held by MAZLUM-DER İstanbul branch Chairman Cihat Gökdemir, lawyers Dıvrak and Selçuk Kar and the deputy chairman of the association, Gülden Solmaz. Dıvrak said: “All the deaths occurred due to injuries caused by firearms. The ATK reports show that the bodies have been washed, so it was not possible to find any traces of chemicals or gun powder. We wonder why Israel washed the bodies of those who were killed.”
Dıvrak added that since the bodies had been washed and all the clothes were extremely dirty it was not possible to determine the shooting range.
“Most of the bullets did not stay in the bodies but entered and exited the bodies. Some bullets exited the skull but entered [the body] again,” he stated.
Dıvrak underlined that a very unusual bullet was found in the brain of activist İbrahim Bilgen. He said this bullet surprised doctors because they have never seen this kind of bullet before. “Israel claims that the soldiers were attacked and that they were defending themselves. But the autopsy reports show that this is not true. Most of the bullets came from above and entered the skulls. It is obvious that the bullets came from the choppers,” he said.

Source
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I said don't forget Burma!

[kevin roberts]

[CelticNorth]

What is interesting about Pulpculture's follow up on the flotilla "massacre" in international waters, is that Israel rejected an investigtion be permitted by international observers, and "declared" it would conduct its own investigation of the killings. My own,assumption, at this point in time, is that there were to many "neutral" witnesses from some forty Arab countries whose testimony cannot be swept under the carpet, and that families of those killed demanded the autopsies be done. We have not seen "live footage" that was filmed or shot during the event broadcast here in the United States. Is there footage of the tragedy that is being shown in other countries that is not shown here ? In this modern age of digital imaging, I find it impossible that those on board did not record images at the time of the event; unless Isreal "seized" all digital recording devices for "thier investigation". My sense is that we will never see any images of this tragedy, if they exist, which only reinforces what many perceive is government control and access to historical documents in real time.

[Kiahanie]

The Israeli government did indeed seize all recording devices. I saw some IDF footage -undoubtedly carefully edited- in Turkey, and my son says he saw some on the Internet over here, also undoubtedly carefully edited. While undoubtedly authentic, those videos failed to record what many eyewitnesses were reported as seeing.
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"There is a field out beyond right and wrong. I'll meet you there." --Jellaludin Rumi

[CelticNorth]

Media manipulation by pro-Israeli groups is monitored by various groups, some of whom post their information on Israel Lobbby Watch, with another group posting addtitional information on The Electronic Infitada site. There should be no doubt in anyone's minds that media access, control and pro- Israel commentary have always been a major component of Isreali foriegn policy, with citizens of foreign countries living outside Israel who support the Zionist agenda being willing contributors to Israeli media efforts. I just learned this week about a group calling itself "Campus Watch", which consists of volunteer students at various colleges and univerities here in the United Stated dedicated to monitoring political postions taken by their professors, who then start an information campaign targeting the professors lectures and writings as being anti- Israel, and in some cases, anit-Semetic. While the actual killing of Palestinains occures mostly in Gaza and the West Bank, stiffling of the intellectual freedom that questions Isreali policies starts right here at home, in our own universities.

[Pulpculture]

This is very interesting......

Dispatches - inside Britain's Israel Lobby

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E70BwA7xgU
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I said don't forget Burma!

[CelticNorth]

The "special relationship" which Israeli lobbyist enjoy privately with high ranking government officals in both Britian and the United States is often hidden in plain view. It jus so happens the Los Angeles Times ran a Op-Ed article yesterday, October 31, 2011, titled " A true ally in the Middle East", which was authored by Robert Balckwell, former deputy national security advisor for strategic planning under George Bush, and Walter Slocomb, former undersecretary for defense under Bill Clinton, both of who are associated with the "Washington Insitute for Near East Policy", which recently published a "report" titled " Israel: A Strategic Asset for the United States". Here in the Unites States, as is being made clear by the U-Tube pod cast coming out of Britain, the Israeli lobby in both countires has a stangle hold on forgein policy descisions, which while being favorable to Israeli, are not evenhanded or even remotely devised with equal consideration towards Arabs. Here, those whose oppose such blantant influence peddeling and forgien policy doctrines are frequently called anti-Semitic for even questioning any policy which has remote implicatons for the alleged "safety and security" of Israel. Supporitng the Zionist cause for a Jewish Homeland because of the Holocaust always seemed to be like "robbing Peter to pay Paul", to use a Catholic phrase, with the and blood spill of militant Zionism now unable to be cleansed and washed.

[woundwort]

I found the Dispatches programme interesting, but maybe not for the reasons Pulpculture did. Looking back in this thread, I see he linked neutrally to David Duke.

I live in the Yu-Kay, and I have heard of Duke. Even if I hadn't, if I found myself not recoiling from comments made by him, I would ask myself if I had gone down the wrong path. I would wonder if I were too different from an American who hadn't heard of Nick Griffin linking to a speech of his.

Now, has anyone else noticed the anti-Israel agit prop which never is off our streets, or free oppobrium in the mainstream media? Yes? Okay, let's drop the canard that there's any campaign to silence it.

In face of this - such as riots outside the Israeli Embassy including serious criminal assaults on attending police, compared to the almost complete public protest against the crack-down in Syria - the idea that there is a campaign against criticism strikes as either the speaker's desire to be seen as bravely speaking truth to power or a quasi-religious belief.

[CelticNorth]

Anit-Israeli agi-prop ? I think that if the state of Israel was judged by the international community using the same standards it judges other nations violations of human rights, negative commentary about Israeli manipulation of the media on both sided of the pond would be silenced altogether. Zionism, since its inception, has alwasy had as its agenda the displacement of the native Arab population to fullfill its mission. I've always imagined that only by addressing the issues raised by Zionist ideology itself can one fully begin to grasp the horror bestowed upon the Palestinian Arab in its name.

[woundwort]

[CelticNorth]

You're reading my mind, Friend woundwort, regarding the systematic ethnic cleansing and displacement of the American Indian by the United States in the 19th century. If there ever was a historical lesson deliberately unlearned, it is that of the injustice done to the American Indian. I spent last summer touring the Apache Indian "Reservation" in Arizona, and visiting the Indian school at "Fort Apache". It was enough to make me be ashamed to be called an American. I imagine the underlying reason the Arab- Israeli conflict has dominated the popular western press over other struggles is becasuse of its biblical overtones, with the claims of a Abrahmic religious right to a land already being occupied. Like the term "Manifest Destiny" used as short hand to justify Amreican expansionism in the 19th century and the subsequent treatment of the Amecian Indian, "Zionism" has overtones of similar underlying meanings in relation to its percetion of the Palestinain Arab. I just do not believe that ealy Zionist's entered Palestine with the intent to grow corn together and share in building a respectful, recipocal and democratic community of equals- the statements of David Ben Gurion not withstanding.