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Anthony
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 1239
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 Posted: Tue Jun 1, 2010 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| michaeldavidjay wrote: |
At my home meeting, I would be eldered if I gave unprepared vocal ministry. If my vocal ministry was dis-unified... or my speech was disjointed -- if I seemed to be speaking without knowing the direction of my speech. (I could not say a line -- wait 4 seconds, then say the next line -- it would not be appreciated... it also would not be appreciated if I did not start knowing the conclusion... they expect 'sermons'.) |
Oh!  Michael, all of this seems so very contrary to what I have been led to understand is Quaker ministry. How can ministry arise from communion with the Inner Light of Christ during a Meeting for Worship be spontaneous and prepared at the same time? Not only prepared but almost rehearsed so that it is not only planned but eloquent and subject to eldership if not considered good enough. I actually find this very disturbing; how many people are afraid to minister under such a regime? I would be grateful if someone could enlighten us as to the ministering of Fox and his contemporaries.
I know that John Woolman once gave ministry in which he was very disappointed, consequently, he didn't minister again for several weeks.
In our UK A&Q we are adviced to 'Receive the vocal ministry of others in a tender and creative spirit. Reach for the meaning deep within it, recognising that even if it is not God's word for you, it may be so for others...Pray that your ministry may arise from deep experience, and trust that words will be given to you. Try to speak audibly and distinctly, and with sensitivity to the needs of others...'
I repeat the poem previously posted with apologies to those who have already read it:
In the Life
My piece was pat and all ready to say,
She rose first. I threw my piece away.
My well-turned stuff
Was not so rough
As hers, but easy elegant and smooth.
Beginning middle-end
It had and point
And aptly quoted prophet priest and poet.
Hers was uncouth
Wanting in art
Laboured scarce - audible and out of joint.
Three times she lost the thread
And sitting left her message half unsaid.
'Why then did thee throw it
Into the discard?'
Friend,
It had head
(Like this). Hers oh had heart,
(Robert Hewison 1965. Quaker Faith and Practice. UK. 2.64)
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"There is not an animal on Earth, nor a bird that flies on it's wings, but they are communities like you" The Koran 6:38 |
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Pulpculture
Joined: 28 Apr 2003
Posts: 509
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue Jun 1, 2010 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| michaeldavidjay wrote: |
| At my home meeting, I would be eldered if I gave unprepared vocal ministry. If my vocal ministry was dis-unified... or my speech was disjointed -- if I seemed to be speaking without knowing the direction of my speech. (I could not say a line -- wait 4 seconds, then say the next line -- it would not be appreciated... it also would not be appreciated if I did not start knowing the conclusion... they expect 'sermons'.) |
That's really sad. Seems very restrictive.
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michaeldavidjay
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 399
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| Posted: Tue Jun 1, 2010 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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afraid to speak, restrictive... yes, yes. I have an appriciation for Joel Bean's comments on the pastoral system.
that being said, the idea that God only inspires messages at the meetinghouse is also restrictive.... the work of preperation is a meaningul task, even when I do not speak.
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Anthony
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 1239
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| Posted: Tue Jun 1, 2010 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| michaeldavidjay wrote: |
that being said, the idea that God only inspires messages at the meetinghouse is also restrictive.... the work of preperation is a meaningul task, even when I do not speak. |
I can't accept this for the reasons already mentioned.
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"There is not an animal on Earth, nor a bird that flies on it's wings, but they are communities like you" The Koran 6:38 |
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michaeldavidjay
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 399
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:32 am Post subject: |
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Why can you not accept that study is meaningful? you do realize that you are reducing God's ability to meet with people to the context of a traditional Quakerism that is quite rare where I live. The meeting in my town happens to be very-programed... and not very open. I have different preferences -- I do see that an individual can get in the way of God... I call it the 'personality driven church' or just a personality cult. -- but, I still do not like saying God cannot meet people where they are -- because people cannot come to where a transcendent God is.
 last couple weeks, I was at friend's conferences, and attended more traditional worship services. I miss that, as my home worship group is experimenting with becoming generic evangelical in hope of attracting new people who left other generic evangelical churches for some reason. I don't think it's a wise, or useful strategy -- but, I am not on the elders board.
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Anthony
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 1239
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| michaeldavidjay wrote: |
| Why can you not accept that study is meaningful? you do realize that you are reducing God's ability to meet with people to the context of a traditional Quakerism that is quite rare where I live. The meeting in my town happens to be very-programed... and not very open. I have different preferences -- I do see that an individual can get in the way of God... I call it the 'personality driven church' or just a personality cult. -- but, I still do not like saying God cannot meet people where they are -- because people cannot come to where a transcendent God is. |
Michael, I feel you are trying to put words in my mouth and that you seem to have gone off on a tangent. I guess what you mean by 'study is meaningful' is that one can worship and prayerfully contemplate on ones own. I have no argument with this but any 'inspiration' arising from it is not arising from a gathered Meeting and it is meeting with others for worship that ministry arises.
If I am reducing 'God's ability to meet with people to the context of a traditional Quakerism' then are you able to show me that pre-prepared ministry - as described below - was encouraged and therefore it is a traditional Quaker practice?
I think the reasons I have already given for ministry arising in Meeting for Worship are very good reasons and grounded in Quaker tradition. Perhaps someone with a deeper knowledge of the Quakerism of George Fox and his contemporaries could clarify whether pre-prepared ministry (as opposed to ministry considered in the Meeting for Worship before one stands to offer it) was encouraged (pre-prepared in the context of planned, written down, perhaps rehearsed and essentially well articulated).
Although I personally feel opposed to such pre-prepared ministry and am not saying that the early Quakers did not practice it but it just seems not to be in the spirit of true ministry to come to Meeting prepared with a script. This would not be from the depth of a gather Meeting that meets with the Inner Light of Christ. As Quakers we are of the mind that lone worship is not of the power of a gathered meeting within a Meeting for Worship. If, outside Meeting for Worship, we feel inspired then share it by all means, perhaps in the Meeting Newsletter, but the communication with the Holy Spirit or Inner Voice of the Light of Christ during a Meeting for Worship is where I think true ministry should arise. And it shouldn't matter in the least if it is unprepared, poorly articulated so long as it is spontaneous and from the depth to the Meeting and the heart and spirit of those offering it. Anyway, this is what true ministry means to me but I am prepared to admit that I may be wrong. 
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michaeldavidjay
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 399
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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I'm sorry -- just have been frustrated... I don't like can't (s). -- but I see meeting for worship as a gathering of people and talents as well as a meditation -- we are there for one another as well as to seek God. I most likely misunderstood you.
I don't like where my home meeting has gone, to the point that I often drive over an hour to attend a traditional (unprogramed) worship service [effectively conservative, but affiliated with EFCi]. My home meeting's elders board reads books on church growth, and have been seeking how to be "successful" -- I argue with them sometimes that we need to be faithful, and let God take care of us instead of trying to do everything... I've worked within this as far as I can... [at one point, being told when I would speak, and which passage of scripture I would expound on -- I did not attend for months after that, as I was deeply uncomfortable with that level of programing... they were following the pattern of a book written by a mega church pastor, not asking God what he wanted for us].
My private devotional life is study -- and most often my spoken ministry comes out of that preparation [not deliberately, but it is shaped to the point of being in effect prepared... even though I did not bring notes, nor did I study intending to bring a message, and sometimes do not realize I will speak until I have finished speaking.] For me, it felt like a criticism for how I approached worship -- as, I am not exactly entering the meeting empty.
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Actually, I attended my home meeting today (I slept too late to worship out of town) -- and, it was very meaningful. I would have liked more silence -- and if the vocal ministry was less one sided, but -- I felt God met us there.
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Anthony
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| michaeldavidjay wrote: |
My private devotional life is study -- and most often my spoken ministry comes out of that preparation [not deliberately, but it is shaped to the point of being in effect prepared... even though I did not bring notes, nor did I study intending to bring a message, and sometimes do not realize I will speak until I have finished speaking.] |
Hi Michael,
I don't take issue with this but with those who bring prepared notes or books to meeting so that they can read from them as a ministry. Perhaps I am nit-picking again but I accept that a thought or inspiration could arise during the week that we decide may be used as ministry on Sunday morning. This is not an issue with me and I accept that in Meeting for Worship this thought or inspiration may 'resurface' and allow for spontaneous ministry arising from it. (We may even have thought about it during the week.) This is not the point I am making, a point I may not be making very well. It is a pre-prepared script or reading from a book that has been brought to Meeting especially for this purpose that I question. A script that has been carefully planned to be well articulated is what I cannot accept as true ministry arising spontaneously from a gathered Meeting for Worship. I guess we actually agree and I missed your point. Sorry...
I remember reading about John Woolman (it may have been from his journal) who related a time when he was so very upset and disappointed in his ministry that it was a long time before he allowed himself to minister again.
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michaeldavidjay
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 399
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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Ah -- we were talking completely cross purposes -- I thought you meant one should only speak a message that comes to him while he is speaking, which seemed rather limited to me. Not everyone is able to speak that way -- some people do it quite well.
My home meeting is an extreme, as I said, I am frustrated with them -- they want to attract people used to sermons... I thought you were taking the other extreme -- I think a moderate position is best. By the way -- your 'prepared sermons' (selected readings) are a scandal in the United States -- as often the speaker pretends they are his own words... there is actually a sermon market.
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