QuakerInfo.com Forum

[Spyridon]

It is often said that John neglects the moral teachings of Jesus. I beg to differ. John presents the greatest commandment in a much stronger form than the Synoptics. Rather than "Love your neighbor as yourself," Jesus commands something far more radical, "Love one another as I have loved you." How much did Jesus love us? Enough to lay down his life for his friends. (John 15:12-13)

In case you believe that John teaches a "free grace" theology without any regard to works, look up John 5:29. We are saved by faith that works. This is quite different from placing faith in works. A good faith will produce good fruits. (John 15:1-8 ) Otherwise, how can the sincerity of your faith be judged? Jesus said, "If you love me, follow my commandments." (John 14:15)

I wonder why "free grace" folks claim that John is the only Gospel that presents how we will be saved, and that this is without any regard to works, and yet they ignore Jesus' own statements in John that he will judge each man by his works and that if we love him, we'll follow his commandments. I'm not trying to push any form of legalism, but I do believe that, as Christians, we're called to be compassionate in active love.

[Chip]

James has a lot to say about works being evidence of faith.

James 2:

12So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

13For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
_________________
Take what is given
Give what is taken

[Spyridon]

Let's also not forget the words of Martin Luther:

[Spyridon]

Does anyone on the forum disagree with this article?

[Kiahanie]

OK, I'll bite. I disagree. For now I stand aside on the questions of salvation, immortal eternal life, etc.

I think a great mistake is made when we try to force scriptural texts into some systematic, logically coherent framework, particularly texts from different traditions, like shoehorning John and Paul into the same ideological container. Most of the "authors" of scripture were not theologians or systematic thinkers: they were just trying to express individual or community experience with a Divine Presence, and very often doing so separately from the other writers while still incorporating common touchpoints.

The fine theological distinctions between "faith" and "works" are examples of scriptural Osterizing. The former is an artifact of Gnosticism, the latter an artifact of pre-rabbinical Judaism. The labored distinction between "earning ... on the basis of works" and "receiving ... according to works" is a contrived difference.

I think it marvelous that early Christianity found creative ways of expressing the Divine by combining these (and other) separate threads, but I think too many notions are needlessly generated by trying to justify them one with the other, then using those conceptual constructs as foundations for moral and ethical guidance toward a hypothesized "eternal life."

I find scripture most useful when I listen beyond the words to the Encounter being described, rather than as a textual jigsaw puzzle requiring considerable assembly. It is in that Encounter that I can find Eternal Life as infinite depth in the Now.
_________________
"There is a field out beyond right and wrong. I'll meet you there." --Jellaludin Rumi

[Spyridon]

Do you disagree that good works are the evidence of genuine faith? Do you disagree that faith without works is dead?

[orPowers]

[Spyridon]

[orPowers]

[pilgrim]

I find the whole debate, "salvation through works" vs. "salvation by faith", to be irrelevant and detracting to a genuine relationship with God.

I don't like to think of "faith" and "works" as being separate, but rather as being aspects of that relationship with God. Faith is the inward result, whereas works are the outward result. This is my interpretation of the Testimony of Integrity.

Don't worry about whether works are the result of faith or vice versa, but instead seek God and everything else will fall into place.

[Chip]

What Pilgrim said.
_________________
Take what is given
Give what is taken

[kevin roberts]

Statement!

20--love!

[Kiahanie]

I've been gone, but orPowers and Pilgrim speak my mind.

Thanks, guys.
_________________
"There is a field out beyond right and wrong. I'll meet you there." --Jellaludin Rumi