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Spyridon
Joined: 07 Oct 2009
Posts: 203
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 Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:53 pm Post subject: The Resurrection of Jesus |
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The oldest account of Jesus' resurrection is 1 Corinthians 15.
1 Corinthians 15
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
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Verses 5-8 move on to speaking about the resurrection appearances. Paul begins by saying that Jesus was seen by Peter, then by the twelve. After this he says that Jesus was seen by over five hundred people at once, then by James, then by all the apostles. As my article is not an Apologetic aiming to prove inerrancy or the historicity of the resurrection, I will not address the problems presented by the list of appearances Paul gives. What is interesting about the resurrection appearances is that immediately after speaking of the above listed appearances, Paul says that last of all Jesus appeared to him ("He was seen by me"). This logically means that it was the same Jesus that appeared to him, either physical or non-physical, as with the other appearances mentioned. The same Greek word is used for "seen" to speak of the appearance to Paul as is used for the appearances to Peter and the rest. The word is often used to speak of supernatural appearances, such as for the transfiguration. It is rendered as "appeared" a few times in the Markan appendix, a word indicating something non-physical. As the appearance of Jesus to Paul was not physical, the appearances mentioned prior to his were also not physical. Literalists would probably claim I am begging the issue, saying that we should look at the resurrection accounts of Paul and the others, and if we do so it becomes clear that the appearances to the others were physical, but not with Paul. But it’s hardly begging the issue, because of the way the appearances are mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15, which doesn’t suggest any distinction between the type of appearance, just the timing.
http://secweb.infidels.org/article19.html
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Paul uses the same Greek word for "seen" in reference to his vision of the resurrected Christ that he uses for Jesus' appearances to the apostles. He makes no effort to differentiate between the Christ which appeared to him and the one seen by the twelve.
1 Corinthians 15
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit... 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
These verses can be interpreted as Paul contrasting the "natural body," which is physical, with the "spiritual body" of the resurrection. Another interpretation is that Paul's referring to the same physical body in a new state of being. If so, why does he then say that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God"? A common explanation is that the resurrected body is fleshly yet without sin and therefore spiritual. Is this, however, the plainest meaning of the text? Is the resurrected Christ a fleshly being or "a life-giving spirit"?
I have not written this to deny the physical resurrection of Jesus. I have not made a judgment against it at all. Rather, I would say the nature of Jesus' resurrected body is perhaps a mystery that cannot be explained. This is the position expressed by Leslie Weatherhead, who was, besides C.S. Lewis, one of 20th century England's most well regarded preachers.
If the apostles witnessed the resurrected Christ in the same way Paul did, would that make it any less real? If Jesus appearing spiritually to the apostles is nothing more than a figment of their imagination, is the same true of Paul? If the apostles didn't sincerely believe that Jesus had risen, their movement would have died on the cross. |
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punkrainbow
Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 301
Location: Leeds
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| Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:24 am Post subject: |
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Whatever we are talking about when we discuss 'the Risen Christ', we are not referring simply to a re-animated corpse. How many bodies do you know which can walk through walls for instance? What is also rather interesting about some of the Resurrection accounts is that the disciples don't seem to recognise their teacher. Given what's just happened in the lives of the disciples, this seems almost unbelievable. Perhaps Jesus 'risen' body is somewhat different from his pre-resurrection body? These issues and more seem difficult digest.
What I can say is that there was an 'earth-shattering' event which evidently galvanised a group of frightened and persecuted peasant labourers into a religious community which proclaimed Jesus of Nazareth as 'Messiah', 'suffering servant' and 'saviour' of Israel and later the Gentiles. Later still this same community called Jesus 'God' Himself. An event of particular magnitude is needed to describe this process, especially given the fact that 'failed' Messiahs were fairly frequent during and after Jesus' time. Something unusual is presumably warranted to explain how Jesus managed to buck this trend because, not merely in spite of his death. The precise facts of this event are inaccessible to us, but it's existence can be inferred from what happened afterwards.
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I saw the infinite love of God. I saw also that there was an ocean of darkness and death; but an infinite ocean of light and love, which flowed over the ocean of darkness. |
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Spyridon
Joined: 07 Oct 2009
Posts: 203
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| Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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I would have to agree with you. My point is that, whether physical or not, the resurrection of Jesus really occurred and was not the figment of anyone's imagination. I can't imagine any explanation other than the apostles' sincere belief in the resurrection for the survival of their movement.
There are more contradictions regarding the precise details of Jesus' resurrection that I have not mentioned: http://www.angelfire.com/ny/dawahpage/res.html
I'd have to agree that the precise facts of this event may be inaccessible to us, but it's existence can be inferred from what happened afterwards. |
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Anthony
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 1542
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| Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Was Paul of the opinion the Jesus' resurrection was physical or spiritual? |
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Spyridon
Joined: 07 Oct 2009
Posts: 203
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| Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Anthony wrote: |
| Was Paul of the opinion the Jesus' resurrection was physical or spiritual? |
The plainest meaning of Corinthians is that it's spiritual. He not only speaks of it in spiritual, as opposed to fleshly terms, he also doesn't mention the empty tomb. Please forgive me if I'm mistaken. |
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Spyridon
Joined: 07 Oct 2009
Posts: 203
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| Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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Some modern Christians, and even a few theologians, believe in a spiritual (rather than bodily) resurrection of Jesus. According to this view, his human body either vanished or was removed by God, and he reappeared in his eternal spiritual form.
Some scholars think that this was also the original belief of the earliest Christians, and that the idea of a bodily resurrection didn't appear until later. Possible evidence for this can be found in some of the earliest writings, including the letters of Paul and the Gospel of Thomas. Surviving writings of the gnostics indicate that this group of early Christians may have believed in a spiritual resurrection. In fact the evidence suggests that different groups of early Christians disputed this very matter, and some scholars suspect that several passages in the gospels may have been invented to try to refute the idea that Jesus arose in spiritual form. The best-known example is John 20:24-29, in which Jesus invites the disciple Thomas to touch the wounds made by the nails and the spear thrust. Some scholars doubt that this actually happened, especially since none of the other gospels say anything at all about nails or a spear thrust.
The belief that Jesus returned in a spiritual form is also consistent with the various gospel stories in which he suddenly appears and disappears, or passes through walls, and with the stories in which his followers don't initially recognize him, or are told not to touch him. Many scholars think that these stories are older than the stories in which he invites the disciples to touch him.
Note that the Spiritual Resurrection Theory is fundamentally different from the Vision Theory. In one case there is an actual spiritual resurrection, whereas in the other case there are only hallucinations.
Many people consider the Vision Theory to be the most plausible of the alternative theories, but the Swoon Theory also has supporters. And some Christians prefer the idea of a spiritual resurrection to the traditional belief in a bodily resurrection.
http://www.gospel-mysteries.net/resurrection-theories.html
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Spyridon
Joined: 07 Oct 2009
Posts: 203
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| As for the original topic of this thread, I personally believe that God physically rose Jesus from the dead. This is because I do not necessarily believe in the immortality of the human soul. Instead, I find the idea of "soul sleep," that we only become immortal when God chooses to resurrect us, as perhaps more reasonable. |
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BillSamuel
Joined: 06 Aug 2002
Posts: 772
Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:35 am Post subject: |
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As to the Corinthians passage, I think an important point being made by Paul is that those of us who have not seen the resurrected Jesus in body can nevertheless have Him also appear to us fully. This to me is a better understanding of the use of the same word for the physical appearances in the period after the resurrection and the appearances not in the body since.
I don't know if there are any specific references to this meaning of this passage in early Quaker writings, but it seems fully consistent with what we do know about their understanding of Christ Jesus. They did believe in the physical resurrection and they did believe in His being fully present to us.
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Bill Samuel, Silver Spring, MD, USA
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Tone
Joined: 14 Jun 2009
Posts: 15
Location: Guildford, UK.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:01 am Post subject: |
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Wasn't Paul referring to his own conversion experience on the Road to Damascus when he lists himself as one to whom Jesus appeared?
Acts 9
1 Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"
5 "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.
"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6 "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."
7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8 Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9 For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.
Acts 22:4-19
6 "About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. 7 I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, 'Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?'
8 " 'Who are you, Lord?' I asked.
" 'I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,' he replied. 9My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me.
10 "'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked.
"'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.' 11 My companions led me by the hand into Damascus, because the brilliance of the light had blinded me.
He did not see a resurrected body, but heard a voice and was possibly blinded by a light.
There are many would claim a similar experience, whether actual or imagined, as their authority to speak in Jesus' name.
Tone
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The Light Within does not cast a shadow |
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Spyridon
Joined: 07 Oct 2009
Posts: 203
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Tone wrote: |
Wasn't Paul referring to his own conversion experience on the Road to Damascus when he lists himself as one to whom Jesus appeared?
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Yes, but he doesn't make a distinction between how the resurrected Christ appeared to him and how he appeared to the Apostles. |
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Tone
Joined: 14 Jun 2009
Posts: 15
Location: Guildford, UK.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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Well obviously there is a distinction if we go by the Gospel and Acts records.
If the disciples saw him in a locked room, or on the road but didn't recognize him, then that hardy relates to a blinding light and an accusative self-identifying voice.
Jesus (God?) is in us all. It takes time to recognize him sometimes.
I guess we won't know the truth of resurrection in this life, which is why we have faith, but my point is there are many ardent Christians alive today who claim to have met Jesus personally. Are they genuine, or deluded? Were the apostles and Paul genuine or deluded?
It all comes down to personal experience and, dare I say it, need.
Lets put it this way. If Jesus were to appear in a crowded room clearly, in a safely documented verifiable situation I would fall on my knees in worship now. But he doesn't, does he? He always appears to individuals, who, by their very reaction, could best be described as emotional.
I take great comfort in the response to Peter made by Jesus, "Why do you call me God?"
Tone
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Spyridon
Joined: 07 Oct 2009
Posts: 203
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Do you see the conflict between Paul's writings and the Gospels on Jesus' resurrection? |
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Tone
Joined: 14 Jun 2009
Posts: 15
Location: Guildford, UK.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:15 am Post subject: |
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I see conflict all over Bible accounts of almost everything.
tone
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The Light Within does not cast a shadow |
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Anthony
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 1542
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| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| Tone wrote: |
I see conflict all over Bible accounts of almost everything.
tone |
A couple of examples, please  |
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Tone
Joined: 14 Jun 2009
Posts: 15
Location: Guildford, UK.
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