QuakerInfo.com Forum

[Gracie]

I'm unprogrammed (and unorganized, but that's something else all together).

I agree, good to discuss. Thanks.
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http://sowingmildoats.wordpress.com

When will our consciences grow so tender that we will act to prevent human misery rather than avenge it?
Eleanore Roosevelt

[Shay]

LOL-I'm as unprogrammed and liberal as they come. But I don't know what programmed or unprogrammed has to do with it.

[james]

alternative82ni (or just "alt"),

I think the approach to dress you described is good and valid and, from the sound of it, creativity of a sort. I'm not plain, not programmed, not conservative, and in fact don't believe in God either. I'm deeply and fundamentally frugal and informal, and that's the only reason I dress, not plain, but ordinary.

So, I would agree with others that what you describe isn't plain, but plain--at least self-consciously plain--doesn't strike me as any more virtuous than fancy. It's just something some Friends--really a very tiny percentage of Friends--have felt compelled to practice.

You are right that there was a period in Quaker history when many Friends dressed intentionally to be recognized as Friends, but these weren't the earliest Friends. It's a later period, where the original idea of plainness--not dressing up for church or for anything else--had turned into something much more uniform and recognizable. Plain speech went through a similar transition--it began as using familiar/friendly forms of address for everyone, and respectful/formal forms of address for no one. It was much later that it turned into speaking in a way that nobody but Quakers spoke.

Anyway, please know that when I say the style of dress you describe is not plain, I don't mean to say that plain is in any way better. I don't think it is. And if your youth is a part of what moves you to dress as you do--I suspect it is--bless you and your generation. I think it's great when young people shake up old people by dressing distinctively. Old people need to be shaken up.
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James Riemermann
www.nontheistfriends.org
www.liberalquakers.org

[orPowers]

[alternative82ni]

Shay....programmed & unprogrammed has nothing to do with it, it was brought up in a discussion @ my meeting house on Sunday night last and so it was fresh in my mind and I just wondered.

James, I know you don't believe in God, I'm over @ the email discussion group with you guys, rdowling.....is my handle there, I usually use the same handle on all sites as I have here, but I can't get it to display over there.

I did a dissertation on Quaker spirituality @ bible college, and I always remember the whole cause for 'dressing distinctively' from that study and I guess that's what fuels me to oppose the plain dress statements, I guess I need to stop linking plain dress with these earlIER (rather than early) slightly obsessed (?) Friends.

[alternative82ni]

I must say, I've really mis-communicated myself as some sort of a radical dress icon lol. I chose the word punk much too quickly, I just like being ever so slightly 'creative' not so much for expressions sake, I just like to know that If I saw me in my clothes in the street that I, as myself would think that I look good.

Anyway...I've dragged the convo. way too far off course, I just don't think the whole plain dress thing is all it's cracked up to be or particularly necessary. But I'll leave it there.

[james]

Aha--rdowling. Good to hear from you here.
_________________
James Riemermann
www.nontheistfriends.org
www.liberalquakers.org

[kevin roberts]

There are many reasons for adopting the plain witness in dress as well as in other aspects of your life. If one's goal is simplicity and nothing more, then a nudist colony is the logical destination. And if the ultimate goal is to emulate the very first generations of Friends in the various aspects of their faith and practice, then the result is to walk into the future looking backwards. The first Friends were interesting people-- Christian theists, all of them, by the way-- so if you want to make the first Friends your examplar there are religious questions that have to be addressed as well.

The plain witness is not uncommon in my yearly meeting, and always has been. For many years I have dressed in what is generally referred to as "plain"--the Amish parallel-- and have done so partly in self-defense as a way to notify people that I will behave in unusual ways in courtrooms and in other social encounters. I dress in this way to encourage me to stay out of places where God would prefer me not to go. I also dress in the plain fashion in order to remind me that I am always a witness for God, everywhere I go--that all my actions and words are scrutinized under much stricter standards that when I used to blend in. I dress in the way I do because people approach me every day to ask me questions about God, and it gives me the chance to point them in the directions that I think they are looking for.

As a plain Friend, I consider it extremely important to my choice to follow God in all aspects of my life that I not blend into the world, that I don't make its considerations and values determinate of my own. This is my own choice, and one that I don't impose on other people or judge them for not participating in. In that sense the plain witness is a religious discipline, similar to silence or poverty, and so on. (Although silence is not something anybody would accuse me of.)

Just another arrangement in the kaleidoscope. It makes my choice of what hat to put on in the morning easier as well.

[alternative82ni]

Kevin (& all), I can see how the silence of meeting can be embodied in plain dress, but I can also see how the thought-processes which come out of the silence can be embodied in more creative dress senses. Maybe it comes down which factors of living and the Quaker path (as we are quakers (small q for me)) resonate most with our being (due to our nurture + nature) (?) I think that, not only is there room for both perspectives, but is there a 'need' for people to fullfill both the plain dress & otherwise roles within the society and the community (?)

[kevin roberts]

Basic New Testament doctrine discusses the concept of the Body of Christ, in which individual members of the body make different contributions to the encompassing organism. Barclay discusses this in his proposition on Scripture. He points out that Scripture advises Christians to obey the Holy Ghost in its promptings to fulfill the role of one organ or another, but doesn't specify which one to adopt. The implication is obviously that different organs are required and expected.

The plain witness is not for everyone, and to adopt it for reasons that don't stem from a personal leading from the Holy Ghost would be inconsistent with the original Friends belief that action and inaction alike should result from direct guidance. The same holds for wearing a psychedelic mohawk, or commissioning Maori facial tattoos, or changing what one does for a living.

The Body of Christ is a kaleidoscope, not a row of bricks in a wall, although Friends at one time thought so, and many in my meeting still do.

Having said that, there is a great deal of advantage in yoking oneself to like-minded draft animals, and the often close-knit association between Friends who adopt various aspects of the plain witness creates a profoundly deep spiritual synergy that hybridization doesn't usually achieve.

[alternative82ni]

This is true of NT doctrine, but the NT doesn't touch on different variations of clothing-expression, I feel that this is something we can bring to the NT as an ongoing part on 'church' development & progression.

There is gr8 'brotherhood' amongst those who accept the same approaches, but the more magnificent brotherhood is amongst those who are different, but yet function as one group (usually due to a common goal) I know you know this, but I just wanted to pin it on the notice board.

[kevin roberts]

As practiced by Friends, the plain witness isn't a legalistic pursuit. When I refer to the Body of Christ having different members, clothing is irrelevant. Clothing is merely a secondary consequence of following certain leadings that have other more important foundations, and serves as a public witness of these other things. Most members of my Yearly Meeting don't follow it.

I am not a universalist in the dominant culture's usage of the term, although as a Friend I consider myself a universalist in a specific usage not shared by many people. In my experience, diversity for its own sake is a testimony of limited value. I have always found that the cart moves the fastest when everybody is pulling in the same direction.

Whether or not that approach is of greater or lesser value depends on whether there is agreement as to what that direction is.

[bradleyp]

Every one!
Thank you for the encouraging, insightful and helpful replies.

I’ve been thinking about what has been suggested so far, and I find that I do some of the ideas already, for instance I tend to wear solid colours in my shirts, and have a growing collection of black pants (both jeans and “dress pants”). I also avoid advertizing and logos on my clothes, though I must admit that my winter jacket has a logo on it, I didn’t want to buy one but that was the one that fit my requirements of the time when I bought it.

I have been wondering, going back to my original questioning, what is the general thought on items like sweaters or even vests? I guess the suggestions on solid colours would probably apply, but what is the general thought on that sort. Right now, I am a sweater guy, it’s convenient for Ontario in February and March.
_________________
Bradley P.
Somewhere along the pathway back, the pathway forward, wherever it leads, I wish for an interesting walk.

[kevin roberts]

Bradley, here's a link to what some modern Friends have to say about plain dress:

http://www.michiganquakers.org/plain.htm

I disagree with some of them, but it's important to let them speak for themselves--they're the ones doing it. Your own interpretation will be based on your own reasons for pursuing it--there isn't a right or wrong way to follow the plain witness.

Here are some sources:

Friends Patterns

Sew your own. We do a bit of this.

P.O. Box 326, Gettysburg OH 45328-0326
friendspatterns@juno.com

www.friendspatterns.net

Gohn Brothers

Lots easier for the sewing-impaired.

Box 1110, Middlebury IN 46540-1110 Toll Free (800) 595-0031

[Shay]