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Traveller · Joined: 23 Apr 2008 Posts: 6

I found the following article and I would like to know how quakers think about this topic?

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/aprilweb-only/118-11.0.html
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Shay · Joined: 01 Jun 2005 Posts: 885

I don't know... where does "That of God in all" stop?

(I can't actually pause here, but imagine a pause to consider the idea)

I have my personal answer but others may have their own.

In the linguistic and/or reporting area...I think Pagans is a bit of a misnomer- it's a handy term for those who think of themselves as such but it's not really accurate from the dictionary, where most people who don't think that way get ideas from- the word pagan 'means' "a person holding religious beliefs other than those of the main world religions." But from another standpoint, it could mean one who believes there is a spark of God in every living thing... which isn't an unFriendly idea. (As someone who rides a motorcycle in America I'm well aware the term "Pagan" can mean waaay more that one thing too!) You know, even the SOF has ideas that are different from world religions when i comes to practice... where, exactly, is the line?

I'm pretty sure there are Friends who still light candles at mass for family members or Friends who believe fervently in their water baptism... but do these practices mean it's a growing threat to Friends' beliefs?

Quite frankly, that website does not seem very Friendly. I searched for Quakers and it seemed most articles thought of us as a quaint idea that has outlived it's usefulness or we're some weird throwback. I think the idea that I got most of all from reading a couple of the essays was, "Don't question this now, silly, we've got it covered." I don't mind being evangelized, but when I feel downright patronized it's another matter.

Others may disagree, as I'm sure they will. Smile

I guess my main idea is that the Society will, as it has, endure as long as it is keeps to it's ideals. The methods may be up for debate, but the belief that there is something better, some road higher, some part of us closer to the divine, and some way we can make the world better... call me a dork, but I believe that's a good goal to take to heart every day.

I know... dork. Rolling Eyes

Ailsa · Joined: 10 Apr 2008 Posts: 181 Location: France

I was a Pagan for many years before coming to Quakerism.

I thought this poem I wrote might explain in some measure how I came to that decision and why. I will be more than happy to discuss but for me, obviously there were links but Quakerism finally felt more "my home".

The Party

The printed invitation that fluttered on the mat
Said “You’re coming to a party, no arguments, that’s that.
It’s held for every pagan, it’s come just as you are
Being held just ‘round the corner, you will not need the car.”

Amazed and quite delighted I turned the invite round
To see who could have sent me this thing that I had found
The signature below it was bold, embossed and bright
It didn’t give a name, just – yours sincerely, Light.

How very, very thoughtful to think of asking me
Who’s loosely-speaking pagan, though highly label-free.
Whoever this bod “Light” was, a generous kind of soul
If getting all together was this party’s only goal.

Well the party was a belter and everyone was there
The heathens and the druids, the eclectics, Wiccans (dancing bare)
Kitchen witches swapping, their favourite recipes
With Egyptian-centred ladies who gave them kohl for free.

There was mead and wine and Celts who were arguing the toss
With Greek and Roman worshippers,( I didn’t hear who lost.)
I found a great big pot of tea, which is what I wanted most
Apart from my big intrigue … who was our charming host?

So I sat down in a corner with my mug of tea and bun
Inviting who’d invited us to come and share the fun
To come and sit beside me and tell me their true name
Cos while I like a party, I’m not good at guessing games.

And a voice from right beside me said “Please just call me Light.
Not Apollo, Lugh or Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, right?
I’m Astarte, Isis, Cernunos, and all the gods you know
And others you ain’t heard of … you’ll learn this as you grow.
Whatever people call me, I am the light to all
Who love all of creation, the greatest, the most small.
If you can see my handiwork in fur and feathered friend
In other folks and trees and stones – you’ll see me in the end.

So call me Light, small otter and seek no other name
For I’m no-name and I’m all-names and I love you just the same”.
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Still walking cheerfully ......

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punkrainbow · Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 301 Location: Leeds

Gracie · Joined: 27 Nov 2006 Posts: 170 Location: Iowa

Chalk me up as another who came to Christian Quakerism via a pleasant stay in Neo-Paganism. Ailsa, love the poem.
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When will our consciences grow so tender that we will act to prevent human misery rather than avenge it?
Eleanore Roosevelt

Ailsa · Joined: 10 Apr 2008 Posts: 181 Location: France

Thank you so much dear Friends for liking the poem.

I think, like Punkrainbow my flight to Paganism was a revolt against very strict Christianity which, as a small child had be quaking in my sensible shoes. Far from believing in a loving God, I lived in fear of being struck down because I was so wicked (I wasn't actually I was too darn scared even to be naughty)

To the point where God (capital G, masculine) became a bad word in my dictionary. So I ran towards a more female and nature centred worship. I stayed with Paganism for a very long time, becoming an HPS and teaching others.

But the revelation hit me as I described in the poem and, having attended Quaker Meeting with my Aunt and talked endlessly with her, I came home. Thanks Be!

But I agree that we are walking a tightrope. What are the fundamental beliefs or principles on which we cannot give way in the name of being inclusive or non-exclusive? At what point would we say, no that is not acceptable?

I don't unfortunately have a Meeting with whom to discuss this so I would be interested in other's opinions.
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Still walking cheerfully ......

http://bipolarbear-buckshot.blogspot.com/

james · Joined: 11 Jun 2004 Posts: 1108 Location: Minneapolis

orPowers · Joined: 25 Aug 2006 Posts: 637 Location: Medford, OR

I'd have to say that Gamaliel's advice concerning the new ideas of the followers of Jesus has some bearing: "38Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail.39But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.” Part of the point is that we should be able to discern the Light as it is expressed without putting artificial restrictions on how it is expressed, though practical restrictions on the order of James' observations are in order. The other part of the point for me is that, if the thoughts and ministry of Jesus is as cogent and meaningful today as I believe it to be, the expression of THAT Light will be seen that way too. There are a number of people who have come to Quaker thought and processes from, and continuing to express other traditions that have grown to appreciate that last point.

In His Love,
orPowers
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Romans 8:38-39

my blog: http://mild-side.blogspot.com/

punkrainbow · Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 301 Location: Leeds

punkrainbow · Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 301 Location: Leeds

Ailsa · Joined: 10 Apr 2008 Posts: 181 Location: France

Punkrainbow - I too loved Mists of Avalon and have given copies of it to dozens of friends. I am sure that book has been more responsible than any other for bringing disillusioned people to paganism.

And yes, that final passage where Morgaine as a High Priestess comes to accept that the Infinite is the Infinite no matter what form it is disguised in, mirrors exactly what I came to realise myself.

And I agree that we must keep our hearts and minds open to avoid excluding anything of the Light that may be sent to us in no matter what form.

If we continue to "answer that of God in every one" then we can hardly go far wrong because we will know the Truth in what people say from what is Not Truth. We have come to Quakerism because Spirit has spoken to us in our hearts - if we listen to our hearts, Spirit will tell us what to keep and what to discard. No?
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Still walking cheerfully ......

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Keith Maddison · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 238 Location: North England

I know that there are Pagan/Quakers in Britain Yearly Meeting. I recently asked an elder in the BYM, if Satanist Quakers would be acceptable. He said no because they are evil, but who is he to say they are evil after all they do worship the Angel of the Light.

I personally think it is a nonsense to have Pagan Quakers, but why not everyone else is welcome to the Quaker Party.

I once fell madly in love with a Witch and impressed her with my knowledge of Paganism, as I studied it when I was young. Meeting her rekindled my interest in it and I even went to the first Pagan/Christian conference in Britain, as far as know it may have been the first in the world. I met a lot of interesting people there, some were very intelligent and could explain their beliefs in a logical manner others were completely nuts. I met one of the many King Arthurs who live in Britain and the King of Fairies was also there. I personally have no problem with Pagans or people of any other religion within their own religious group, but I can not understand why people seem so unhappy with their own religion they felt drawn to Quakerism. I have give up trying to understand why some Quakers are willing to accept them.
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Don't follow leaders and watch the parking meters, the pumps don't work because the vandals took the handles.
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Ailsa · Joined: 10 Apr 2008 Posts: 181 Location: France

Keith Maddison · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 238 Location: North England

The Christian/Pagan conference I went to was organized by the Pag Fed, it was in 1994 I think. I think a lot of people have a look at Paganism, I still have a shelve full of Pagan books from years ago, most of them are rubbish and I a lot of their ancient traditions go all the way back to the 1960s, some are still being made up today.
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Don't follow leaders and watch the parking meters, the pumps don't work because the vandals took the handles.
Keith

Ailsa · Joined: 10 Apr 2008 Posts: 181 Location: France

I think one of the problems, Keith, is that most of the young people drawn to Paganism now (it is so coooool) forget that it was invented in the 1950s by Gerald Gardener. Many actually believe that they are continuing a tradition dating back thousands of years. It is very difficult to convince them otherwise.

And yes, now that there are so many breakaway groups from the original Wicca, it has become very much "make it up as you go along" and change what doesn't suit. (this is what is known as Ecclectic)

Those of us who studied hard and meditated and worked on it got quite fed up with the "all show and no substance" people who liked to call themselves Pagans and cover themselves in jangly things.
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Still walking cheerfully ......

http://bipolarbear-buckshot.blogspot.com/