QuakerInfo.com Forum

[quiverquaker]

A New World for Puritans Only?

Greenpeace delivers it's message in confrontational ways as well. Japanese whaling boats don't like it. Should the Japanese kill the Greenpeace protesters?

In 1658, religious intolerance in Boston reached a horrible height, when a law was passed banishing Quakers under "pain of death."

For a full context read the definitive work to describe the real issues of the day in the scholarly work

Quakers And Baptists In Colonial Massachusetts

by Carla Gardina Pestana

Cambridge University Press; New Ed edition (January 28, 2004)

ISBN-10: 0521525047
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The quivering leaves of the Quaking Aspen tree echo a soft sound that stills the forest.

QQ

[orPowers]

[quiverquaker]

www.kobek.com/marydyer.pdf
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The quivering leaves of the Quaking Aspen tree echo a soft sound that stills the forest.

QQ

[aldona]

[quiverquaker]

I share your thoughts on this matter Aldona.

The Quaker testimonies of Equality and Peace have led many Friends to speak the truth about the senseleness, cruel and inhumane actions in taking life.

By the way you will find a good welcome and friendly group at the Australian Quaker Forum

http://quakers.org.au/forum/index.php
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The quivering leaves of the Quaking Aspen tree echo a soft sound that stills the forest.

QQ

[orPowers]

I believe that the point Patrocles was making was that the commandment in "the 10 Commandments" never had the intention of anything but "murder," and we see later recorded "commands from God" to commit acts of war and to execute people in quite savage ways. The point is that you may use whatever reason or argument that you deem advisable or true concerning "killing," but it is not part of "The 10 Commandments," and Bible scholars are aware of that. Conclusion: don't use it as one of your arguments, that's all.

In His Love,
orPowers
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Romans 8:38-39

my blog: http://mild-side.blogspot.com/

[quiverquaker]

Was Mary Dyer murdered?
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The quivering leaves of the Quaking Aspen tree echo a soft sound that stills the forest.

QQ

[quiverquaker]

Yes
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The quivering leaves of the Quaking Aspen tree echo a soft sound that stills the forest.

QQ

[BillSamuel]

The proper translation and meaning of this commandment is a matter of some controversy. The large majority of both Jewish and Christian commentators maintain that the original Hebrew is not accurately translated as an unqualified thou shalt not kill (the Qu'ran directly qualifies it). Most modern translations render it murder instead of kill. However, there are dissenters amongst both Jewish and Christian scholars.

But there is much less agreement on what killing is prohibited. Not a few say it means thou shalt not kill unlawfully. The circular nature of this makes one skeptical of this. Did God really engrave a law on stone that says it is unlawful to do what is unlawful?

For the Christian, it may not be that critical what the original Hebrew means. Jesus over and over again made clear that we need to go well beyond what the Hebrew law literally requires (in Matthew 5:21-22, he does so with just this commandment). So acts of killing that perhaps the literal Hebrew commandment did not forbid are not necessarily permitted for the Christian.

The early church understood Jesus' rebuke of Peter's use of the sword at Gethsemane as indicating that no follower of His was to engage in violence against another for any purpose. This view was almost universal in the early church.
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Bill Samuel, Silver Spring, MD, USA
Co-Coordinator, Friends in Christ

[quiverquaker]

Our Friend Bill speaks my mind.
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The quivering leaves of the Quaking Aspen tree echo a soft sound that stills the forest.

QQ

[orPowers]

Indeed.
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Romans 8:38-39

my blog: http://mild-side.blogspot.com/

[Patrocles]

I agree with Bill's words, as an historical information.

My point is that I avoid at all to argue on the base of biblical authority, the historical Jesus or the early church. Even if the translations or interpretations are sometimes historically correct - most people choose them, shift them or turn them just as they need them to justify their personal standpoint. I'm simply fed up with that (which was why I reacted somewhat provocative on quiverquakers "Thou shalt not kill")

Perhaps I may tell a little story. As a young man I was stunned by Joel Carmichael's book about Jesus in which Carmichael showed convincingly (for me, at that time) that Jesus was in fact a militant revolutionary which tried to conquer Jerusalem with his army. Then I said to myself: "If that's true (and it may quite well), I have to chose between Jesus and pacifism." So I said to Jesus: "So sorry, but our ways have to part now because I follow rather my personal feelings than you" (I didn't know anything about an "inner light" then, of course).

Now the problem with my personal feelings is that they say me what I'm to do but they don't say me what another (like a Boston Puritan some centuries ago) is to do. I accept in theory that the inner light is the same in us all and that we ought to have some general moral standards. But I suppose that I really tend to condone everybody about everything.

[BillSamuel]

Some Friends may be interested in The Jesus Gospel Web site. This is one Quaker's site devoted to Jesus' teachings about peace.
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Bill Samuel, Silver Spring, MD, USA
Co-Coordinator, Friends in Christ